House of Commons · Westminster Hall
21 October 2020 · 6 other contributors · 13,999 words
Opened by Chris Evans Labour (Co-op) Caerphilly
Responding minister: Anna McMorrin
Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.
Chris Evans raised concerns about support for people and businesses in wales: covid-19 — [sir edward leigh in the chair] in Westminster Hall. A government minister responded.
Key points
Key requests to Government
I ask that the Treasury makes plans to address business concerns and provide more generous payments to help workers through this crisis. Aid needs to be more targeted and flexible, taking into account the complexities of British businesses.
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.
Opened the debate
I am concerned about the financial pressure on businesses struggling to recover from multiple lockdowns, especially since the Welsh Government can only offer support within the confines of Barnett consequentials. Many businesses have approached me for assistance and are worried about how they will pay back bounce-back loans. The latest firebreak lockdown has escalated these fears significantly.
He thanked members for their comments on public sector workers during the pandemic, including prison officers. He highlighted that the UK Government has provided additional funding to Wales through various schemes such as loans and the furlough scheme. He acknowledged the role of Welsh Labour in delivering support but criticised opposition MPs for politicking with people's lives.
The hon. Member for Islwyn's debate highlights the significant impact of coronavirus on businesses across Wales. Fay Jones acknowledges the support provided by both Governments through various schemes but expresses concern over the tourism and hospitality sectors, which have seen a loss in revenue due to lockdown measures. Disagrees with accusations that co-operation between Westminster and Welsh Governments has not been consistent, arguing it is false to claim they do not work together just because of disagreements.
Welcomed the Welsh Labour Government's enhanced package of support for businesses, including doubling the economic resilience fund to over £300 million. Recognised the contributions made by local authorities and third sector organisations in maintaining public services and supporting residents' wellbeing during the pandemic. Acknowledged concerns raised about lack of regular contact from the UK Government to the Welsh Government and called for unity in tackling the virus. Emphasised the importance of a four-nation approach in tackling the virus but stressed the necessity of local responses based on regional circumstances. He noted the lack of communication between the Prime Minister and the First Minister of Wales, which had gone without contact for over three months.
Jessica Morden highlighted the challenges faced by businesses and individuals in Wales due to the pandemic, commending the Welsh Government's firebreak measures. She stressed the need for early access to the job support scheme and mentioned specific cases of constituents denied furlough or self-employment support. Morden also raised concerns about statutory sick pay eligibility for lower-paid workers returning from furlough, and the inadequacy of new job support grants for low-wage earners.
Stephen Doughty praised the Welsh Government's decision to impose a period of defined restrictions, contrasting it with the UK Prime Minister's approach. He acknowledged the support provided by the Economy Minister Ken Skates but expressed disappointment over lack of coordination from the UK government, particularly in areas like freelancers and those excluded from various programmes. He highlighted a £300 million package announced for businesses and urged clarity on public health restrictions and economic support. Doughty also mentioned delays at UK Government-run testing sites and called for early implementation of the job support scheme. Highlights the inconsistency in co-operation between different levels of government and questions why the Chancellor cannot start the job support scheme earlier to coincide with a local lockdown decision by the Welsh Government. The point of order was not directed at him, highlighting the need for a respectful debate.
The hon. Member is making an excellent speech and raises a valid point about the certainty provided by a firebreak or circuit breaker approach, which has a specific deadline of 9 November, compared to an open-ended tier-based system. Pays tribute to community groups, key workers and businesses in Wales for their efforts during the pandemic. Criticizes UK Government's support compared to Welsh Government's £300 million financial aid package. Highlights lack of emergency funding for steel industry and need for long-term support. Emphasises importance of local manufacturing capabilities and strategic independence. Calls for significant investment in vocational training post-pandemic, highlighting uncertainty around UK Shared Prosperity Fund.
Government Response
Anna McMorrinI did not call her a liar. I just said— On the point made that was made by the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, a telephone conversation took place last week between the First Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer; I am afraid that I cannot find the relevant part of my speech, but I know that that phone call happened. During that discussion, the First Minister indicated that he would bring forward this lockdown and indicated the date that it would start, and he asked for the financial support that the hon. Gentleman refers to. He was told very clearly that the Chancellor's new scheme would apply on a certain date, and the Chancellor implored the First Minister not to bring in the lockdown on the dates proposed. The point is that the Chancellor and the First Minister had that discussion and knew each other's position. The First Minister still decided to go forward with that lockdown, and therefore it is the First Minister's responsibility to come forward with the proposals to support affected businesses in Wales. I suppose there is one thing that we all agree on: a lockdown has an enormous impact on business. There is absolutely no doubt about that. It will cause people to lose their jobs and businesses to close—it will leave people worse off. We all agree on that, which is why we are arguing, to some extent, over how much money we can find to support those businesses. If we all accept that, we need to be careful before we introduce lockdowns. The hon. Member for Cardiff North mentioned the science. The Government are following the science of people such as the deputy chief medical officer, Jonathan Van-Tam, who said—today, I think, or certainly earlier this week—that local lockdowns are working and are likely to be effective. The World Health Organisation said that lockdowns can be effective but should be used as a last resort. The Government have to take account of the fact that although a lockdown can temporarily suppress the number of people going into hospital, it will also have the impact that we all know about on people's jobs and livelihoods. In the long term, the inability to diagnose patients with things such as cancer will ultimately have an impact on lives. I was talking recently to a senior, established dentist in south Wales, who told me about the number of referrals each year for oral cancer, which are first discovered by dentists. Because so many dentists are now not operating, or are not operating the same service, fewer people are going to see the dentist. Therefore, fewer people are being referred for oral cancer consultations, and at some point in the future a number of people will lose their lives because of an undiagnosed form of cancer. That is absolutely inevitable; it is just not going to generate a headline. A responsible Government must take account not only of what is going on here and now in the NHS with covid, but of what will happen in the longer term when people lose their jobs, or when they are not diagnosed as early as they should be for diseases such as cancer. It is a very difficult tightrope to walk. I do not envy anyone in the Department of Health or in No. 10, and I do not envy Mr Gething or Mr Drakeford; they both have a very difficult job to do and I do not doubt that they are doing their utmost. I certainly am not going to play politics or suggest that, because they are taking a slightly different course of action from that of the UK Government, they are doing something dangerous. However, we have a right to question what all of the Governments are doing. I do not accept that last point, because the First Minister would have been able to speak to the Prime Minister anyway, had he wanted to, and Welsh Government Ministers were dealing with UK Government Ministers on an almost daily basis. I would go as far as to say that, because at a lower level I was involved in the ministerial implementation groups, and I know that during lockdown they were taking place multiple times every week—I will not quite say every single day, but it felt like it. Every day, Ministers from each of the devolved regions were taking part in the decision-making process. Therefore, I cannot accept at all the argument that there was a lack of contact. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney made the interesting point that it makes sense to have a regional approach, because the virus is breaking out in different ways across the United Kingdom; that is a fair comment. Of course, the same can be said within Wales. There are areas of Wales where the outbreak of the virus is far lower than in other parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, he may feel that he needs to justify to a tea shop owner in Tenby why there is now a full lockdown taking place in half-term, at a time when that shopkeeper or that tea shop owner would have been hopeful of recouping some of the money that has been lost over the last six months. I am conscious that the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) must respond to the debate. By the way, he made an excellent speech. I am grateful for the comments he made and I am looking forward to the Henry VII trail that will take place. Of course, by the time Henry VII made that famous march across Wales towards Bosworth, we had already seen the hard border disappear; from the time of Owain Glyndŵr onwards, we have not had a hard border in Wales. Yet, as a result of decisions that are being made at the moment, I fear that it will come back again, which is not something that I, as a Unionist, wish to see. For as long as this virus continues, the UK Government will want to support all parts of the United Kingdom, and if other Governments or local authorities in other parts of the United Kingdom want to take credit for the enormous help that has been offered, that is absolutely fine by me. I can assure hon. Ladies and Gentlemen here today that we do not want to play politics with this situation; we simply want to eradicate this virus and then get back on with the job of rebuilding Britain.