Commons Sense

House of Commons · Bill Debate

Armed Forces Bill - Lords amendment 1 and Government motion to disagree, Lords amendments 2-50

06 December 2021 · 21 other contributors

Opened by Leo Docherty Con Aldershot

Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.

At a glance

Leo Docherty raised concerns about armed forces bill - lords amendment 1 and government motion to disagree, lords amendments 2-50 in the House of Commons. Other MPs contributed to the debate.

Key points

  • Concerns raised about the House disagreeing with Lords amendment 1 regarding concurrent jurisdiction in service justice cases
  • Moves to reconsider the Lords amendment 1 were discussed
  • No specific asks of the government or commitments made were recorded

How the debate unfolded

MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.

Opened the debate

Leo Docherty Con Aldershot

Moves that the House disagrees with Lords amendment 1, which suggests reconsidering concurrent jurisdiction in service justice cases.

Other contributors (21)
  • Nigel Evans Con Chorley

    Supports the Government motion to disagree with Lords amendments and discusses several related amendments, highlighting concerns about jurisdictional safeguards for witnesses and defendants.

  • Bob Neill Con Bromley and Chislehurst

    Questions why the Government did not adopt the recommendation to do away with concurrent jurisdiction as part of Judge Lyons' report, raising concerns about inconsistencies in policy adoption.

  • Jim Shannon DUP Strangford

    Inquires whether the legislation will address past cases and prevent future incidents of sexual abuse and harassment in the military.

  • Bob Neill Con Bromley and Chislehurst

    Requests assurances that if concurrent jurisdiction is implemented, witnesses and defendants will receive the same level of protection as under civilian procedure rules.

  • Kevan Jones Lab North Durham

    Highlights that the number of incidents investigated by the serious crimes unit is small compared to those handled by civilian police forces, questioning its effectiveness.

  • Jamie Stone LD Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross

    References comments from Sarah Atherton, Chair of the sub-Committee, who suggests that military courts are not well-suited to handle serious sexual offences.

  • Alicia Kearns Con Rutland and Stamford

    Questions circumstances where a military court would be better suited for rape cases compared to civilian courts, particularly in cases of soldier-on-soldier or man-versus-woman incidents.

  • Simon Hoare Con North Dorset

    Asks who would choose the jurisdiction for hearing such cases and on what grounds these choices would be based.

  • Bob Neill Con Bromley and Chislehurst

    Calls for a legal commitment to the armed forces covenant, suggesting that this could address concerns about inconsistencies in policy adoption regarding the service justice system.

  • He supports ensuring that if cases are heard in a court martial setting, they should automatically be available with the same protection, support, and procedural devices as those available in civilian settings.

  • Alicia Kearns Con Rutland and Stamford

    She suggests a compromise might be to revisit the issue in a year's time if the Bill passes, to assess whether cases are being properly prosecuted and women are receiving justice.

  • Stephen Doughty Lab Co-op Cardiff South and Penarth

    He agrees that there is a missed opportunity in the Bill to deal with issues facing foreign and Commonwealth veterans. He urges the Government to support upcoming opportunities to resolve these issues.

  • Johnny Mercer Con Plymouth, Moor View

    Supports Lords amendment 1 which moves serious crimes out of military courts. Cites lower conviction rates for rape in military versus civilian courts (16% vs 34%). Criticises the MOD and the Secretary of State for going against advice from officials, suggesting a lack of integrity.

  • Alicia Kearns Con Rutland and Stamford

    [INTERVENTION] Emphasises the courage required for victims to report rape or child abuse. Highlights the silencing effect on victims, preventing them from seeking justice.

  • Kevan Jones Lab Durham University

    [INTERVENTION] Criticises Johnny Mercer for not acting as a Minister to address issues he now highlights. Accuses Mercer of rewriting history and lacking integrity.

  • Simon Hoare Con North Dorset

    [INTERVENTION] Supports moving serious crimes out of military courts but questions the power invested in the Attorney General, suggesting it should not be wielded by a Law Officer.

  • Carol Monaghan SNP Glasgow North West

    Supports Lords amendment 1. Cites evidence from the Defence Committee report which found that over 64% of servicewomen experienced sexual harassment, rape, bullying or discrimination. Criticises current laddish culture and poor victim care in military courts.

  • Bob Neill Con Bromley and Chislehurst

    Neill supports the overall bill but criticises specific amendments for undermining its effectiveness. He argues that the prosecution service lacks expertise to handle certain serious cases, such as rape and sexual offences. Neill also suggests a compromise involving beefing up the protocol and giving more authority to the Director of Public Prosecutions instead of introducing new jurisdictional complexities.

  • Matt Rodda Lab Reading Central

    Rodda highlights the welfare issues faced by Gurkha soldiers who retired before 1997, particularly their modest pensions. He urges the Minister to expedite discussions with Nepal and provide more support for these veterans.

  • Margaret Ferrier SNP Rutherglen and East Renfrewshire

    Ferrier supports Lords amendments 2 to 13, which aim to strengthen the legal basis for the armed forces covenant. She argues that including the Secretary of State in due regard duties will ensure consistency and national oversight for issues reserved at a UK level.

  • Kevan Jones Durham, UKIP

    Mr Jones supports the military justice system but argues for putting victims at its heart. He cites evidence from Professor Sir Jon Murphy, the Victims Commissioner, and retired Lieutenant Colonel Diane Allen to highlight issues with the current complaints system and chain of command. He welcomes the serious crime unit but questions its effectiveness due to potential lack of volume for expertise development. Mr Jones also references his work on a report by Sarah Atherton that highlights people not coming forward with complaints due to perceived unfairness in the system. Additionally, he supports amendment 2 regarding Departmental involvement in welfare and criticises local government's lack of resources to carry out functions related to the Armed Forces Bill.

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