Commons Sense

House of Commons · General Debate

Horizon Settlement: Future Governance of Post Office Ltd

19 March 2020 · 19 other contributors

Opened by Kevan Jones Lab Durham North

Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.

At a glance

Kevan Jones raised concerns about horizon settlement: future governance of post office ltd in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.

Key points

  • Concerns raised about the Horizon system leading to unjust accusations and financial ruin for sub-postmasters
  • Kevan Jones highlighted the case of Tom Brown, an innocent individual who lost nearly half a million pounds in assets due to false accusations
  • Minister discussed proactive measures including Select Committee hearings and regular oversight mechanisms to address the issue

How the debate unfolded

MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.

Opened the debate

Kevan Jones Lab Durham North

The debate centres around the scandal involving sub-postmasters who were accused of theft due to flaws in the Horizon system, despite evidence showing that these accusations were unjust. The speaker pays tribute to individuals such as Andrew Bridgen and James Arbuthnot for their work on this issue. Kevan Jones highlights a specific case of Tom Brown, an innocent individual ruined by false accusations and legal proceedings, costing him nearly half a million pounds in assets. He emphasises the Post Office's knowledge of system flaws from 1999 onwards and its denial culture which led to further injustices.

Other contributors (19)
  • Kevin Hollinrake Con Thirsk and Malton

    The hon. Member emphasises the failure of courts in providing justice to victims who were accused unfairly by the Post Office, highlighting how courts repeatedly sided with the Post Office despite its inability to provide proper evidence.

  • Duncan Baker Con Orpington

    The hon. Member discusses additional revelations about people fixing the system behind the scenes and being incentivised to do so quickly, further exacerbating existing issues and causing worse financial damage to sub-postmasters.

  • John Spellar Lab Warley

    The right hon. Member questions whether any individuals at management levels within Post Office Ltd or Fujitsu have faced accountability for their roles in the scandal, emphasising the lack of consequence despite clear maladministration.

  • Lucy Allan Con Telford

    The hon. Lady notes that Paula Vennells, formerly the chief executive of Post Office Ltd and now chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust, also holds positions such as a non-executive member of the Cabinet Office.

  • Kevan Jones Lab Bishop Auckland

    Highlights issues regarding the Post Office's actions and government inaction, raises questions about non-executive directors' roles and responsibilities towards Ministers. Criticises the compensation scheme as insufficient and calls for an independent voice to represent sub-postmasters.

  • Diana R. Johnson Lab Kingston upon Hull North

    Supports Kevan Jones, raises concerns about MPs' inability to obtain information regarding Post Office's actions, draws parallels with the Hillsborough inquiry.

  • Martin Vickers Con Brigg and Immingham

    The Post Office has caused significant harm to honest individuals who have lost their homes and faced criminal convictions due to the Horizon IT system. The organisation's conduct is tyrannical, and it has ignored discrepancies reported by subpostmasters. A judge was critical of the Post Office for relying on Section 12 clause 12 without demonstrating negligence or error. It is clear that the Post Office must accept responsibility and initiate a full independent inquiry to compensate those affected.

  • Karl Turner Lab Kingston upon Hull East

    This debate highlights a massive scandal where subpostmasters were wrongly accused of theft, fraud, and false accounting based on advice from the Post Office's helpline. The Post Office’s actions are predatory capitalism as they protected themselves at the expense of injustice to many individuals. The organisation bullied and lied to prevent documents crucial for overturning wrongful convictions from being disclosed.

  • The debate underlines that the Post Office's primary concern was self-protection, resulting in total injustice towards those affected by the Horizon IT system scandal.

  • There is a constituent who at 18 years old was wrongfully accused of theft and sent to Holloway for six months without her name being cleared despite waiting five years. This exemplifies the need for justice and accountability in cases involving subpostmasters.

  • Bambos Charalambous Lab Southgate and Wood Green

    Describes Kamran Ashraf's case, highlighting how he lost his business and home due to prosecution based on Horizon system errors. Calls for an independent inquiry into the Post Office's handling of the scandal.

  • Julian Lewis Con New Forest East

    Comments that the Post Office must have known about the scale of problems with the Horizon system, despite denying any flaws.

  • Questions if it was shameful for the Post Office to try and grind down claimants so they would withdraw their claims. Highlights lack of accountability from an arm's length organisation that receives public money.

  • Jerome Mayhew Con Broadland and Fakenham

    Retells the story of Siobhan Sayer, a sub-postmistress who was prosecuted for false accounting due to system errors. Discusses her personal suffering after the incident.

  • David Linden SNP Glasgow East

    Thanked the right hon. Member for North Durham for securing the debate, discussed constituents affected by the scandal, including Jacqueline El Kasaby and Elizabeth Barnes, questioned why justice was delayed and whether the Government would take urgent action to ensure justice for those who settled through mediation, raised concerns about oversight and cover-up attempts, called for a public inquiry as promised by the Prime Minister.

  • Chi Onwurah Lab Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West

    Congratulated the right hon. Member for North Durham and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire on securing the debate, paid tribute to sub-postmasters who faced hardship due to the scandal, expressed disappointment at how technology was used as an instrument of torture, highlighted cases of individuals suffering mental health problems and financial ruin, mentioned the December settlement and Justice Fraser's verdict, called for a bespoke response from the Criminal Cases Review Commission to expunge convictions due to Horizon faults, questioned why Paula Vennells' appointment on the Cabinet Office board was allowed, called for a full public inquiry into the scandal.

  • Paul Scully Con Dover

    Congratulated the right hon. Member for North Durham and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire, who cannot be here today, for securing today’s important debate. Acknowledged the role of post offices and highlighted that there has been a programme of new post office openings. Recognised the impact litigation has had on affected postmasters and their families. Stated that the Government acknowledges past mistakes made by the Post Office regarding the Horizon accounting system and its dealings with postmasters, and that it has apologised for these issues. Announced that a comprehensive resolution to the litigation was achieved through mediation. Mentioned a scheme being developed to address historical shortfalls for non-group litigation postmasters, highlighting the importance of cultural and organisational changes to foster a genuine commercial partnership between the Post Office and postmasters. Emphasised the need for support for successful branch operation including newly established area managers, improved branch support centre, an overhaul in postmaster training, and increased remuneration. Discussed future governance, stating that there are robust mechanisms in place to maintain oversight of the Post Office, including regular meetings with its chief executive officer and chair. Mentioned a new framework document that defines responsibilities and accountabilities between the Government and the Post Office, along with an open and transparent information-sharing agreement. Announced plans to meet the Communication Workers Union at the end of the month to understand postmasters' views and track progress through quarterly ministerial meetings. Reassured Members about the Government's commitment to ensuring follow-through on lessons learned from litigation.

  • Lucy Allan Con Telford

    Asked whether wrongful convictions should be overturned as a priority, highlighting that this is necessary for learning lessons and moving forward.

  • Karl Turner Lab Kingston upon Hull East

    Requested to give way but was denied due to time constraints.

Government Response

Discussed the importance of overturning wrongful convictions through the CCRC, which will refer cases to the Court of Appeal accordingly. Mentioned upcoming Select Committee hearings on 24 March and highlighted the Government's proactive measures to challenge the Post Office in restoring its relationship with postmasters. Emphasised regular oversight mechanisms including meetings with CEO and chair, increased frequency of shareholder meetings, expanded BEIS Post Office policy team, and a new framework document for clear responsibilities and accountabilities between government and the Post Office. Mentioned upcoming meeting with Communication Workers Union and quarterly ministerial meetings to track progress. Reassured the House about governance arrangements and ongoing reviews.

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