House of Commons · Westminster Hall
29 January 2025 · 15 other contributors · 12,890 words
Opened by Andy McDonald Lab Middlesbrough and Thornaby East
Responding minister: Georgia Gould
Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.
Andy McDonald raised concerns about outsourcing: government departments in Westminster Hall. A government minister responded.
Key points
Key requests to Government
The Government should commit to a new wave of insourcing to lift living standards for outsourced workers and deliver high-quality public services efficiently.
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.
Opened the debate
Since 1979 under the Conservatives, there has been a significant growth in private business involvement in public service delivery. Spend on outsourcing was worth £249 billion in 2014-15, reaching £296 billion by 2019-20. Outsourcing undermines the public service ethos and leads to lower standards and higher costs for workers, especially women and minority ethnic employees.
Ms. Ribeiro-Addy highlighted issues with the outsourcing of immigration removal centres to private companies, noting numerous reports of deaths, suicides, mistreatment, and poor conditions.
The MP makes points about public sector capabilities, compatibility with the profit motive, and the process for outsourcing. Notes the significant increase in privately run children’s homes under the previous Government, with some organisations making excessive profits from services for vulnerable children.
The MP supports the idea of insourcing as it is rooted in human decency and paying fair wages. He also highlights issues with prison maintenance being outsourced, leading to deteriorating conditions.
The MP discusses the impact of outsourcing on national security, particularly in his constituency with a large Ministry of Defence presence. He highlights issues like a two-tier workforce leading to less cohesion among military personnel. Asked for clarification on the procurement rules but was not given way by Mike Wood due to time constraints.
He warned about the creation of a two-tier workforce due to outsourcing, where workers receive low pay, insecure contracts, and poor conditions while private firms profit. He also called for meaningful engagement with trade unions to ensure fair treatment.
Asked about the emphasis on 'deputy' in relation to the party leader, but John McDonnell declined to comment.
Mr. Lavery emphasised the negative impacts of privatisation on workers, including reduction in pay, lack of union recognition, and poor working conditions. Mr. Lavery questioned if it is right that individuals in certain private companies can claim universal credit while directors of the same company are receiving thousands of pounds, burdening taxpayers.
Outsourcing is disguised back-door privatisation that leads to lower standards, higher costs, and treats workers as second-class citizens. It has a disproportionate impact on black, Asian and minority ethnic communities. Hussain agreed that trade unions play a crucial role and supported the call for Government intervention in disputes involving G4S, ISS, and OCS.
Ms. Brown-Fuller discussed systemic failures in public procurement and the negative impact on service quality and accountability when services are outsourced to private companies.
Jon Trickett highlighted the negative impacts of outsourcing on workers' rights, service quality, and democratic oversight. He cited examples of pay cuts and derecognition of unions following outsourcing.
PCS workers in Liverpool Riverside are currently in dispute due to inadequate contracts, which put additional burden and stress on them. This impacts not only the workers but also children and other adults who rely on local authority services.
Mike Wood argued that proper outsourcing can deliver efficiency and value for money, but criticised the current Government for complicating effective public procurement and delaying implementation of the Procurement Act 2023. References the failed outsourcing of probation services as an example of poor public service provision.
Gregory Campbell agreed with Jim Shannon's stance, advocating for a sensible and pragmatic approach to outsourcing that avoids extremes of hyper-capitalism or radical socialism.
Thanked the Minister for her debut performance in Westminster Hall.
Supported the demands for fair pay, better working conditions, and an end to outsourcing, highlighting racial inequality in outsourced roles and the exploitation of workers by private firms.
Government Response
Georgia GouldThe Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office
The Minister responded that she welcomes further discussions with Members ahead of putting forward the new national procurement policy statement. She acknowledges critical issues raised about public services and expresses her thanks to Andy McDonald for his contribution. The Minister also highlights the importance of decent jobs with progression routes in vital public services, whether staff are directly employed or contracted. Responds to concerns about outsourcing by outlining reforms in the Employment Rights Bill and the Procurement Act. Stresses that a public interest test will be included in the NPPS to ensure value for money and better outcomes. Emphasises support for SMEs, social enterprises, co-ops, mutuals, voluntary sector organisations, and diversity in procurement. Discussed the importance of public procurement, noting that close to £400 billion is spent annually on it. Emphasised using procurement to ensure good jobs in every community and making assessments based on delivering best outcomes for citizens and value for money.