Commons Sense

House of Commons · Westminster Hall

Bishops in the House of Lords

06 July 2023 · 8 other contributors · 12,693 words

Opened by Tommy Sheppard SNP Edinburgh East

Responding minister: Alex Burghart

Parliamentary ProcedureReligion & Faith

Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.

Read the full transcript on Parliament.uk

At a glance

Tommy Sheppard raised concerns about bishops in the house of lords in Westminster Hall. A government minister responded.

Key points

  • Mr Tommy Sheppard expresses concern over the Church of England's automatic right to representation in the House of Lords, citing lack of public legitimacy.
  • Mr Sheppard notes that only two countries grant automatic legislative seats to clerics and highlights potential conflicts of interest for Lords Spiritual.
  • Mr Sheppard calls for a review of the arrangement and suggests removing the Church of England's representation in the House of Lords without disestablishing the Church.

Key requests to Government

Mr. Sheppard calls for a review of the arrangement to ensure it is in line with current societal norms and argues for the removal of the Church of England's representation in the House of Lords without necessarily disestablishing the Church itself. He also suggests that this debate should inform broader discussions on lords reform.

How the debate unfolded

MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.

Opened the debate

Tommy Sheppard SNP Edinburgh East

Mr. Tommy Sheppard is concerned about the automatic right of the Church of England to guaranteed representation at the heart of power, which he argues does not have public legitimacy in a democratic 21st-century context where a clear majority of citizens do not identify with that Church. He points out that there are only two countries in the world where clerics are automatically guaranteed a place in the legislature and highlights the influence of bishops on socially conservative issues. He also raises concerns about the conflict of interest rules for Lords Spiritual, noting that they have an unfair advantage over other Members of the House of Lords.

Other contributors (8)
  • Aaron Bell Con Worcester

    I congratulate the hon. Member for securing this debate, expressing unease about non-elected bishops changing laws.

  • Alex Norris Lab Co-op Nottingham North and Kimberley

    The MP acknowledges the importance of faith in British life, citing the role of bishops during community crises. He argues that while the constitution has evolved slowly, discussing its elements is necessary to maintain public confidence in democracy. The MP believes in the role of a second Chamber but notes concerns about its size and composition, advocating for reform to better represent all nations and regions.

  • Andrew Selous Con South West Cornwall

    Acknowledges that religious representation in other jurisdictions exists but suggests it is not unique to the UK; argues bishops are generous and give way during debates. Mr Selous highlighted that the issue of bishops in the House of Lords is not a top priority for his constituents. He noted that despite historical precedents, today only 3% of peers are bishops and few often vote. Mr Selous disputed the claim that faith is dying in England and Wales, citing census data showing a majority declare religious faith. He also argued that other major denominations do not advocate for removing bishops from the Lords.

  • Chris Loder Con West Dorset

    Chris Loder emphasised the importance of having an objective debate about why constituents and members of the Church feel increasingly strongly about bishops in the House of Lords. He disagreed with some political views expressed by bishops, believing it alienates them from their communities. Loder highlighted that not everyone agrees with pro-immigration messages delivered by certain bishops and noted that many have issues within their own dioceses.

  • Martin Docherty Lab West Dunbartonshire

    Thanking the Second Church Estates Commissioner for giving way, Martin Docherty discusses the role of the established Church of Scotland and its approach to creating a better society compared to sitting in an unelected Chamber. Expressed concern about the influence of bishops from the Church of England on legislation affecting Scotland, citing a specific example where they had more say than Scottish MPs regarding the Scotland Act 2016. Highlighted that while the Anglican Church has reviewed its own legislative role, it continues to participate in governance across the UK, questioning this practice for nations like Scotland and Northern Ireland. The hon. Member questioned why Anglican bishops who have no moral or theological authority in Scotland are involved in making laws that affect Scotland and Northern Ireland. Asked the Minister if the 23 bishops of the Anglican Church sitting in the House of Lords should participate in legislation impacting Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

  • Neil Coyle Lab Bermondsey and Old Southwark

    He supports reform of the House of Lords but argues that targeting bishops for removal would leave the upper chamber filled with Conservative donors and political patronage. Neil Coyle believes bishops represent dioceses, providing them with a constituency to reflect in the House of Lords. He highlights specific contributions made by bishops on issues such as nurse strikes and Home Office failures. The MP welcomes Bishop Christopher of Southwark's work and commends his involvement in community rebuilding efforts after the London Bridge terror attack. Neil Coyle also mentions that bishops support plans for tackling homelessness, cladding removal fees, and human trafficking, adding that it is disappointing to focus on removing bishops based on their faith rather than addressing issues like political donors and non-performing peers. Inquired about the Minister's stance on silencing Church leaders from speaking about immigration and referenced a nativity story to make his point.

  • Patrick Grady SNP Glasgow North

    The SNP position is clear: the House of Lords should be abolished. There is no place for an unelected legislature, let alone one that grants membership to religious clerics as a right. The hon. Member acknowledges the role and respect due to faith leaders but argues against bishops' ex officio roles in the Lords. He notes the anomaly in granting special privileges to bishops in the House of Lords and questions the relationship between Church and state. Patrick Grady concludes that any reform would need to address the powers held by the Prime Minister and the Government, which they are unlikely to give up.

  • Rachel Hopkins Lab Luton South and South Bedfordshire

    Thanks Aaron Bell for his speech, advocating for pluralistic representation in a diverse religious society.

Government Response

Alex Burghart

Acknowledged the historical context of debates on Church disestablishment, noting that such discussions occur periodically. Emphasized the Government's current policy stance against disestablishing the Church of England due to time constraints before the next general election. Addressed concerns about bishops' influence and privileges in the House of Lords, asserting that bishops do not operate as a party bloc and their code of conduct is similar to other categories like Ministers of the Crown. Defended the current composition of the House of Lords, arguing against an elected upper chamber due to potential loss of diverse talent and experience.

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