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Horizon: Sub-Postmaster Convictions
10 June 2020
Lead MP
Chi Onwurah
Debate Type
General Debate
Tags
Business & Trade
Other Contributors: 75
At a Glance
Chi Onwurah raised concerns about horizon: sub-postmaster convictions in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Lead Contributor
Opened the debate
Welcomed Mr Speaker on his birthday, raised concerns about the impact of the Horizon dispute on sub-postmasters' lives and livelihoods, questioned whether the Post Office has learned from its mistakes, and called for a judge-led inquiry to get to the truth.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Acknowledged the strength of feeling on both sides regarding the Horizon dispute, committed to establishing an independent review to assess the Post Office's work and rebuild its relationship with postmasters. Confirmed that 47 cases out of 61 have been referred to the Court of Appeal by the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West
Critiqued the mediated settlement for not revealing the truth, questioned what responsibility Fujitsu had in the scandal, urged for a public inquiry to be established, and called for justice without delay.
Scott Mann
12:43:00
Asked about measures being taken by the Department to ensure sub-postmasters have the ability to continue working while the Horizon scandal is ongoing. Mentioned past conversations with sub-postmasters who had trouble balancing their books at the end of days.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Responded that the government has invested significantly in transforming the Post Office business, encouraged stronger relationships between postmasters and the Post Office, and mentioned recent initiatives to support sub-postmasters individually.
Called for a full independent public inquiry into the scandal as per previous Prime Minister's commitment. Criticised the delay in getting justice and an apology from the Government to those whose lives were ruined by the scandal.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Defended the independent review process, stating it would cover areas a public inquiry would achieve without duplicating efforts. Emphasised the need for quick resolution to answer questions from victims of the scandal.
Asked how the disparity in outcome between those who can sue for malicious prosecution and those whose civil claims have been settled could be justified, given clear evidence that Post Office concealed information beneficial to sub-postmasters.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Responded regarding the whistleblower case and settlement agreement with the Post Office which included legal costs. Mentioned a process for postmasters who have had their convictions overturned to receive compensation if appropriate.
Darren Jones
Lab
Bristol North West
Asked about the independent review's power to compel disclosure of documentary evidence and witnesses' public testimony in line with the BEIS Committee's inquiry plans disrupted by lockdown measures.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Acknowledged the Post Office's commitment to transparency and disclosure, praised the settlement reached in the Horizon case but emphasised the need for a thorough independent review. He also highlighted the historical shortfall scheme launched by the Post Office for affected sub-postmasters.
Called on the Government to demand an apology and generous compensation from the Post Office for those it has wronged in the Horizon scandal.
Campaigning for over seven years, he urged the Minister to push for a judge-led inquiry as the only way to uncover the truth of the scandal and criticised the Government's failure to act despite shareholder representation on the Post Office board.
Asked his hon. Friend to reassure sub-postmasters in his constituency that they will receive protection and respect from the Government.
Barnsley South
Questioned the fairness of the current compensation, which fails to cover legal costs for postmasters who have suffered financial ruin due to wrongful convictions in the Horizon scandal.
Jerome Mayhew
Con
Broadland and Fakenham
Asked if individual culpability of senior management figures within the Post Office would be part of the review, emphasising cases like his constituent Siobhan Sayer who was wrongly convicted.
Called for a judge-led inquiry and questioned whether the Government will help to compensate postmasters who have been wrongly convicted and support Post Office Ltd's finances.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Pressed the Minister on criminal negligence and conspiracy by Post Office executives, suggesting that a judge-led inquiry should be able to bring such individuals to justice.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Highlighted hundreds of postmasters forced to pay back thousands of pounds to the Post Office for moneys that were not actually owed, questioning why these actions did not trigger a criminal investigation.
Martin Vickers
Con
Brigg and Immingham
Called for an immediate judge-led inquiry and criticised the Government's decision to pursue an independent review instead of taking decisive action.
Mohammad Yasin
Lab
Bedford
Asked why the Minister’s Department failed to protect workers from a corporate governance failure of such magnitude, emphasising that key workers like postmasters should be treated with respect and not suspicion.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
The Government have challenged the situation over the years, especially recently with independent reviews and investigations. The court intervention is necessary to address past wrongs and ensure future security for postmasters.
Kevin Hollinrake
Con
Thirsk and Malton
Concern about Post Office's decision to use Herbert Smith Freehills, questioning if it could contribute to a cover-up similar to Lloyds HBOS scandal.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Responding to Hollinrake, the Post Office changed legal advisers in later stages of litigation leading to settlement and launch of historical shortfall scheme.
Welcomes movement from Government but argues that it is an ongoing injustice similar to Equitable Life scandal; urges for a judge-led inquiry.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Emphasises the independence and depth of the review's terms, highlighting its ability to uncover evidence as with Justice Fraser’s judgment.
Compares this scandal to the Guildford Four; raises concerns over legal settlement costs and urges for something more meaningful to address injustices.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Agrees with the scale of the issue but explains that mediated settlements between Post Office and sub-postmasters prevent a new discussion by Government.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Critiques the current review as insufficient, urging for an immediate judge-led inquiry given the complexity and time span of the case.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Defends the thoroughness of the current review process, arguing it is equivalent to a judge-led inquiry but faster.
Suggests that an immediate judge-led inquiry would streamline and expedite the justice needed for sub-postmasters.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Reiterates his view, aiming to move forward as quickly as possible but without rushing to ensure all parties get answers.
Urges the Minister to start an independent review swiftly and to consider criminal prosecution based on findings.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Agrees with pushing for criminal proceedings where justified, while emphasising the need to continue Justice Fraser's work.
Andrew Gwynne
Ind
Gorton and Denton
Supports a judge-led inquiry; asks about re-evaluation of public positions held by those involved in decisions that victimized sub-postmasters.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Confirms ongoing review of former Post Office employees' public roles, including at the Cabinet Office and NHS.
Calls for rebuilding trust with sub-postmasters to maintain viable post office networks; urges Minister to hold Post Office accountable on this issue.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Agrees and stresses the importance of building trust with future stakeholders, highlighting ongoing efforts to right past wrongs.
Kim Johnson
Lab
Liverpool Riverside
Highlights human costs of the scandal; questions new protections for sub-postmasters regarding Horizon software and accountability measures.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Acknowledges tragic stories, reiterates Post Office's acceptance of fault with Horizon system; emphasises rebuilding trust in future relationships.
Asks for Government to reflect on the infallibility of software in policy making and law.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Promises to review software-related policies given its potential flaws.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
Urges for a judge-led inquiry instead of the current review, seeking guarantees that such an inquiry will be conducted.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Acknowledges the need to thoroughly investigate past decisions and prevent future occurrences; reiterates his push for a swift resolution.
Isabella Wall was a sub-postmistress in Barrow who lost everything due to the scandal. The Post Office has accepted some responsibility but more is needed for proper compensation of victims.
Acknowledged the impact on sub-postmasters and mistresses, supports the settlement reached in group litigation, encourages those not part of a case to come forward for compensation. Confirms an independent review will be wide and deep enough to uncover all facts.
Calls for a judge-led public inquiry into the scandal and demands protection for local post office networks from potential repercussions of the case. Requests details on the Government's plan for both these issues.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Stresses that victims should receive full financial compensation and an apology, as well as justice being served to those responsible for the faulty system leading to wrongful convictions.
Dave Doogan
SNP
Angus and Perthshire Glens
Demands a judge-led public inquiry without delay, considering anything less an assault on victims' welfare. Expresses frustration over lack of immediate action despite known flaws in the IT system.
Joy Morrissey
Con
Beaconsfield
Honours postmasters who have worked tirelessly during the pandemic and requests a commitment to delivering justice for all those wronged by the Post Office, including an apology from the Government.
Kate Osborne
Lab
Jarrow and Gateshead East
Requests a judge-led review that will take action against responsible parties and ensure proper compensation is paid to victims of the scandal. Welcomes the Government’s commitment but seeks prompt action.
Gagan Mohindra
Con
South West Hertfordshire
Questions the Minister about reassurances for fundamental cultural changes within Post Office Ltd to ensure sub-postmasters’ confidence and maintain a robust post office network in communities.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Challenges the Minister to name victims who agree with his position against an independent judge-led inquiry, highlighting the importance of ensuring justice for affected parties.
Caroline Nokes
Con
Romsey and Southampton North
Emphasises that sub-postmasters and mistresses should not face financial obstacles in seeking justice, stressing their right to be heard without cost or delay.
Calls for an apology from the Government and assurances that postmasters’ pay will not be unfairly impacted by losses arising from the Horizon case.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
The Government has been monitoring the Post Office's progress in delivering commitments following a settlement, increasing oversight through shareholder meetings and establishing a dedicated policy team within BEIS. The Government is conducting a review to understand what went wrong with Horizon, whether lessons have been learned, and if processes and information provided by post offices to postmasters are sufficient.
Amy Callaghan
12:43:00
The Minister should stop stalling with reviews and commit today to a judge-led inquiry that will provide justice for sub-postmasters who have been left destitute by the scandal. The Government has had six months to enact an inquiry but failed to do so.
Andrew Mitchell
Con
Sutton Coldfield
The Minister should be mindful of the Prime Minister's confirmation that there would indeed be an inquiry and discuss with his colleagues whether the House may differ from the Government's stance on this issue, considering the serious consequences for sub-postmasters.
Rachael Maskell
Lab Co-op
York Central
The Government should provide a full judge-led inquiry rather than a review to investigate and expose their failings in dealing with post office closures and convictions of sub-postmasters. The review does not hold the necessary powers for a thorough investigation.
Sarah Dines
12:43:00
The Minister should reassure that following the review there will be real sanctions to address the injustice caused by wrong convictions and false accusations, which have effectively destroyed a much-loved public institution.
Rupa Huq
Lab
Ealing Central and Acton
The Minister should make good on promises regarding the reopening of Acton Crown post office. The Patels lost their livelihoods due to wrongful convictions, highlighting the need for an independent inquiry with appropriate power.
Gerald Jones
Lab
Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare
The Minister should accept that a judge-led inquiry is necessary to examine fully how the scandal went on for so long, causing misery and heartache to constituents across the country.
Tracey Crouch
12:43:00
The Minister should look again at financial compensation for those affected by the Post Office scandal, acknowledging that a review might not be sufficient compared to an independent inquiry. Justice Fraser's findings provide a basis for understanding and addressing past wrongdoings.
Douglas Chapman
12:43:00
The Minister should discuss with the Attorney General and Ministry of Justice regarding investigations into Fujitsu employees for perjury, indicating the need for a judge-led inquiry to address the whole scandal's issues.
Derek Thomas
12:43:00
The Minister should ensure that Susan Knight is adequately compensated without significant effort, reflecting on her case as one of many where sub-postmasters have suffered due to the Post Office's actions.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Refers to a constituent's story and mentions the settlement reached after years of deadlock. He also states that anyone who has not claimed can join the historical shortfall scheme, and procedures are in place for wrongly convicted individuals to claim compensation.
Alan Brown
12:43:00
Highlights the Post Office's failure in operating a system where sub-postmasters were automatically guilty. Calls for a judge-led public inquiry to ensure full disclosure and fair procedures moving forward, questioning the measures taken by the Government to prevent future abuse of power.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Acknowledges an independent judge's findings and emphasises the need for a new relationship between the Government as the sole shareholder in the Post Office and sub-postmasters. The goal is to rebuild trust and ensure fair treatment.
Chris Loder
12:43:00
Raises concerns about innocent people being incarcerated due to the Post Office's actions, asking if there are any sub-postmasters currently in prison and seeking a commitment for an immediate full investigation into these cases.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Responds by emphasising the importance of not impeding the Criminal Cases Review Commission's process, which aims to lift wrongful convictions. Acknowledges the suffering caused and commits to a review for justice.
Wera Hobhouse
Lib Dem
Bath
Questions why a review proposed by the Minister should be less time-consuming or costly than a judge-led inquiry, pushing for a commitment to such an inquiry due to its depth and wide-ranging approach.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Explains that public inquiries tend to involve extensive legal expenses and that the review can build on existing work by an independent judge, aiming for efficiency and thoroughness in addressing past injustices.
Karl McCartney
12:43:00
Acknowledges the suffering caused to sub-postmasters and their families due to the Horizon process. Asks about senior management's accountability regarding the Post Office’s position, specifically in relation to Simon Clarke from his constituency.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Responds by highlighting challenges such as individuals moving on over 20 years and mentions that a former chief executive received a CBE through the independent honours commission after an investigation into their fitness.
Lucy Allan
12:43:00
Expresses sympathy for affected postmasters, criticises previous Government officials' close relationship with Post Office management and failure to address injustices. Asks what measures will be taken against vested interests that led to the scandal.
Paul Scully
12:43:00
Emphasises his push for an independently chaired review, separate from the Post Office and Government, aimed at providing answers. He mentions increased frequency of shareholder meetings to hold the Post Office accountable.
Government Response
Acknowledged the strength of feeling on both sides regarding the Horizon dispute, committed to establishing an independent review to assess the Post Office’s work and rebuild its relationship with postmasters. Confirmed that 47 cases out of 61 have been referred to the Court of Appeal by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. Acknowledged mistakes made in the Horizon case, praised the settlement reached by both parties, highlighted the historical shortfall scheme for affected sub-postmasters. Emphasised the independent review's terms of reference to look at what went wrong and who made decisions, listened to victims' voices, and ensured it would not happen again. Acknowledges the impact on sub-postmasters and mistresses, supports group litigation settlement, encourages further compensation applications. Confirms an independent review is underway with wide-ranging terms of reference. We are conducting a review to understand what went wrong with Horizon and ensure that lessons have been learned. We will monitor closely the progress of commitments following the settlement, ensuring compliance by the Post Office. Financial compensation is available through the historical scheme for those affected.
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