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Opposition Day
11 February 2020
Lead MP
Rosie Winterton
Sheffield Central
Lab
Debate Type
General Debate
Tags
Immigration
Other Contributors: 45
At a Glance
Rosie Winterton raised concerns about opposition day in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Response
The UK's points-based immigration system will serve the needs of the entire United Kingdom, including Scotland. The Government is considering recommendations such as an immigration pilot for remote communities and increasing the seasonal agricultural workers pilot to 10,000.
Rosie Winterton
Lab
Sheffield Central
I inform the House that the Speaker has not selected the amendment.
Ian Blackford
SNP
Ross, Skye and Lochaber
Blackford supported McDonald's argument, underscoring the economic implications of failing to implement tailored immigration policies. He noted that any reduction in migration levels would exacerbate demographic challenges and impact Scotland’s economy adversely.
Monaghan highlighted concerns about the proposed salary thresholds set by the UK Government, noting they are significantly lower than starting salaries for graduates in Scotland. She advocated for a full roll-out of post-study work visa routes to ensure talented graduates can build careers in Scotland.
Harper questioned the feasibility and enforcement mechanisms of McDonald’s proposed Scottish visa, arguing that such an approach would undermine the integrity of the UK-wide immigration system.
Douglas Ross
Con
Orcadian
I congratulate the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East on his presentation today and acknowledge our previous respectful debates despite differing opinions. I support a 360° turn metaphorically but will not change my stance. The Government is committed to introducing a new immigration system that works for the entire UK by engaging extensively with stakeholders across Scotland, including businesses and the Scottish Government. This system will focus on individual contributions rather than origins, aiming to address demographic challenges equally in all parts of the UK without devolving powers. We have introduced a global talent route visa scheme and fast-track NHS visas for medical professionals with job offers. A graduate route visa is also being established to attract talented young people post-graduation.
Ronnie Cowan
SNP
Central Ayrshire
Intervened stating that the Minister's argument implies a Scottish immigration system would be unsuitable for other UK regions if tailored specifically to Scotland.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Acknowledged the 'jagged edge of devolution' highlighting that while health and economic powers are being given, businesses in Wales face a £150 million annual skills gap cost without tailored immigration solutions for Wales.
Stuart McDonald
SNP
Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East
Suggested that people should be allowed limited days working in other parts of the UK under additional visas to complement existing main UK visa systems. This approach aims for additionality rather than complexity.
Intervened questioning the Minister's reliance on the Migration Advisory Committee, noting that its chairman was dismissed and suggesting that the committee did not address whether migration should be devolved or reserved due to it being a political question. She also highlighted the lack of UK-wide experience among MAC members.
Questioned the Minister about the expertise of Migration Advisory Committee members, noting their lack of Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish work experience despite supporting an immigration system for the entire UK.
Clapham and Brixton Hill
Thanking the SNP for securing the debate, Bell Ribeiro-Addy acknowledges the need to discuss migration rationally and sets it in terms of societal needs rather than abstract policy. She appreciates today’s motion but disagrees that Scotland is a unique case requiring tailored immigration policies. Despite recognising labour shortages across various sectors including healthcare and engineering, she emphasises the importance of a unified approach towards migration for economic efficiency. Bell Ribeiro-Addy criticises the Government's proposed income threshold system as it ignores underpaid sectors with significant labour shortages. She also expresses concern about devolving immigration policy to Scotland due to potential inconsistencies and non-tariff barriers across regions.
Pete Wishart
SNP
Perth and Kinross-shire
Intervening, Pete Wishart acknowledges the issues Bell Ribeiro-Addy pointed out but argues that the Scottish Parliament can address these challenges effectively for Scotland. He suggests implementing a Scottish visa system to attract necessary workers.
Asking Bell Ribeiro-Addy about her views on migration, Stuart McDonald underscores the importance of a Scottish visa that would allow doctors and other professionals to work in Scotland even if they might move around different parts of the UK using the mainstream system.
Mark Harper
Con
Following Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Mark Harper expresses confusion over her mixed stance on the SNP’s motion and highlights Labour's policy of open-door migration for migrants with immediate access to benefits. He also praises Kevin Foster, a former immigration minister, for his fortitude in removing foreign national offenders from Britain despite public pressure. Mark Harper then discusses data indicating most migrants prefer living in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland rather than Scotland.
Pete Wishart
SNP
Perth and Kinross-shire
Of course, we remember the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution of the “Go Home” vans, which he introduced when he was immigration Minister—but we will leave that aside just now. By pointing out that such a low number of migrants are coming to Scotland, surely he is actually making the case for allowing Scotland to have the ability to recruit more migrants.
This is a chicken and egg situation, and the right hon. Member has got it the wrong way around, if that is possible. The point is that all those papers and the MAC itself suggest that, if countries are able to attract more migrants, their economy will grow. We need the powers to attract and allow in more people, and to grow our economy faster.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain something to me—and I hope the Minister will pay attention—because we will all experience these kinds of cases in our surgeries. I have a young constituent who is from Australia. Her name is Jessica, she works for the Beatson cancer clinic in Glasgow and she wants to stay there.
On what the Migration Advisory Committee says about the points-based system, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his own Government have not provided sufficient information for it to advise on whether the current system or a future system will work well? It says in its report: “We have little idea whether the current system works well because we have not been able to obtain relevant data. We recommend a pause in the proposed increases in the settlement income threshold. We also recommend that there should be a review of the criteria for settlement, though that can only be done if there is better data available”. Does he agree that his Government seem to be thwarting the efforts of the Migration Advisory Committee, which does not seem to be in favour of the system that he is suggesting?
If the response to staffing shortages and skills shortages is to pay people more, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is that when the health service was experiencing desperate shortages of staff right across the board, his Government imposed year after year of public sector pay cuts in real terms?
I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the view of business. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald) outlined in his very good speech, considerable support was garnered from business groups and other stakeholders across civic Scotland, who supported the Scottish Government’s plan and thought it was a good idea.
Jamie Stone
Lib Dem
Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross
I do not rise in connection with the right hon. Gentleman’s reference to my party. To take a broader view of this issue, while his points are well made about the economy and pay and conditions, does he agree that attracting people who might be useful to our economy to move here, contribute to the economy and bring their families here is about more than just working conditions and the economy?
Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should make the point to business that, if it invites in people at the low end of the income scale, there may be large set-up capital costs such as extra social housing, school provision, health provision and in-work benefits, which is a charge on the taxpayer and ultimately a charge on British employers?
I fear that sometimes in politics people oppose propositions for the wrong reasons. I do not regard myself as immune from that tendency by the way, but quite often, people are in a political bunker, and they have predetermined attitudes about the meaning of a proposition.
Simon Hoare
Con
North Dorset
Clearly the buoyancy of the economy and how it works would either attract migrants to Scotland or not, but in the situation of independence, my understanding is that SNP policy is to rejoin the European Union—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] SNP Members confirm that from a sedentary position. In that case, surely the currency of Scotland would be the euro.
Miriam Cates
Con
Penistone and Stocksbridge
Cates discusses her journey from a young political enthusiast to an elected representative, highlighting the importance of public transport in connecting communities with job opportunities and amenities. She advocates for the reinstatement of the Stocksbridge to Sheffield passenger train line and improved rural bus services. Cates also emphasises the need to recognise and value different perspectives within the nation to promote healing and progress.
Owen Thompson
SNP
Midlothian
Thanking the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, Owen Thompson recognises Danielle Rowley's contribution to Midlothian before criticising the UK Government's immigration system for not supporting Scotland's economy. He highlights that migrant workers are essential in sectors such as retail, manufacturing, education, health, and social care within his constituency of Midlothian, which has higher employment rates than the Scottish average. Owen Thompson also mentions positive growth in professional, scientific, and technical activities sectors and the importance of life sciences for Scotland's economy, stressing that UK Government policies are detrimental to these advancements.
Andrew Bowie
Con
West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine
We have a problem in Scotland attracting enough people to live, work or invest. Between 2016-2018, Scotland attracted only 8% of immigrants to the UK on average, fewer than several other regions. The Office for National Statistics reports that there were already 7,000 more deaths than births last year in Scotland. Scottish agriculture needs and relies on seasonal labour; a shortage of which has been seen even while we remained in the EU, with Castleton Farm experiencing a 15% shortage of seasonal labour last summer leading to an estimated loss of over 100 tonnes of produce. I have written to the Home Secretary to ask if we could develop similar processes to the one for seasonal agricultural labour for those who want to engage in the fisheries sector. I agree with my Scottish colleagues on the issue of attracting talent, but do not think a separate Scottish visa is the right way due to complexities and challenges it would bring.
Angus MacNeil
SNP
Na h-Eileanan an Iar
Intervened to say that when migrant workers are attracted to live in our communities, there are pen pushers at the Home Office who prevent them from coming. He pointed particularly to fishing communities on the west coast looking for non-European Economic Area labour.
Mhairi Black
SNP
Paisley and Renfrewshire North
Intervened to point out that there has been a constant drain of Scottish talent over the last 50 years, as people move from Scotland to London due to lack of opportunities in Scotland.
Neil Grey
SNP
Aberdeen City
Intervened to ask if Andrew Bowie regrets that it took just 20 minutes for the Government to turn down the Scottish Government’s proposal which was supported by many stakeholders and people in civic society across Scotland.
David Duguid
Con
Banff and Buchan
Supported Andrew Bowie's point that issues affecting agriculture not just in Scotland but around the UK, including fishing communities of Northern Ireland, can be addressed through a UK immigration policy with 59 representatives from Scottish seats in this place.
Angus MacNeil
SNP
Na h-Eileanan an Iar
Intervened again to say that Ireland can look further and act on its wishes because it has the independence to do so, unlike Scotland which cannot make such decisions due to lack of independence.
Dave Doogan
SNP
Angus and Perthshire Glens
Intervened to express concern that the increase to 10,000 for seasonal agricultural workers is still insufficient based on industry feedback. He suggested an independent Scotland would be more responsive.
Carol Monaghan
SNP
Glasgow North West
Intervened to say that some of the issues discussed will result in labour shortages this year due to Brexit and uncertainty felt by potential workers from Europe.
Alison Thewliss
SNP
Glasgow Central
Ms Thewliss argues that the UK Government's immigration policy is immoral, economically unsound, and detrimental to Scotland's demographic challenges. She highlights Glasgow Central having more non-UK born constituents than any other Scottish constituency and discusses the negative impact of current policies on individuals seeking to settle in Scotland, including workers in care homes and hospitality sectors, who face arbitrary salary thresholds and 'no recourse to public funds' restrictions. She also mentions specific cases where individuals have been denied visitor visas despite reasonable grounds for their applications.
Simon Hoare
Con
North Dorset
Congratulated Alison Thewliss and Bell Ribeiro-Addy for their contributions. Proposed the abolition of the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC), stating that immigration policies should be forged in Parliament, scrutinised, and approved by Members. Emphasised the importance of a flexible immigration system responsive to economic needs across different regions of the UK. Rejected the idea of imposing a salary threshold based on earnings, arguing it is immoral and disregards essential low-paid jobs. Highlighted regional variations in salaries and argued that current figures indicate an average take-home salary of £24,500 compared to £18,500 in North Dorset. Suggested that the Prime Minister's approach to immigration is liberal and open-minded, contrary to fears raised by SNP members.
Wendy Chamberlain
Lib Dem
North East Fife
Chamberlain urged the Government to use existing powers in consultation with the Scottish Government, highlighting the reliance of agriculture on a migrant workforce. She cited the National Farmers Union's estimate that 80,000 people are required annually for crop harvesting and discussed the complexity of the current immigration system. Chamberlain shared a case study about Valentyna Yakoleva, who faces deportation despite living in Scotland since 2010 and supporting her family. Chamberlain argued that deporting Valentyna would be an abuse of human rights and called on the Minister to intervene.
Grant questioned Wendy Chamberlain’s proposal to support a Lib Dem amendment, suggesting it would negate parts of the SNP's motion that condemn the Government's response to the Scottish Government White Paper and call for positive engagement with the Scottish Government before introducing the Immigration Bill.
Foster offered to look into Wendy Chamberlain’s case regarding Valentyna Yakoleva if provided with the details, indicating a willingness to address individual cases within the immigration system's framework.
Stephen Flynn
SNP
Aberdeen South
The debate focuses on the critical issue of Scotland's demographic challenges, specifically a declining working-age population. Stephen Flynn argues that immigration is essential to address this problem and criticises the UK Government for hostility towards migrants. He emphasises that an Australian-style points system should consider regional needs, which the current government has rejected. Flynn highlights concerns over potential changes to salary thresholds, suggesting they would harm Scotland's hospitality sector by making it difficult for non-British nationals to qualify. He calls for a regional visa system tailored to Scotland's needs and criticises the UK Government's dismissal of the proposal.
Christine Jardine
Lib Dem
Edinburgh West
Christine Jardine intervenes, pointing out that current UK legislation allows for differentiation in visas for different parts of the country. She also raises concerns about separate visas for different parts of the United Kingdom potentially limiting freedom of movement within the UK and hampering efforts to attract workers.
Neale Hanvey
SNP
Dunfermline East
Mr Hanvey argued that Scotland requires tailored migration policies rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. He cited examples of businesses suffering from the lack of flexibility in UK immigration rules and highlighted the importance of community support for migrants, particularly those in care homes and rural areas facing funding cuts. He also noted the inadequacy of current visa systems and called on the Government to consider regional variations.
Kirsten Oswald
SNP
West Tyrone
The UK Government's approach to the Scottish Government’s visa proposals is careless and disregards the needs of Scotland. The SNP highlights that migration is crucial for Scotland's population growth, with all future population growth expected to come from migration. Kirsten Oswald emphasises the importance of diversity in communities and criticises the current system which she claims harms Scottish communities.
Central Ayrshire
Ms Whitford declared an interest related to her husband's work as a GP in Scotland and highlighted the demographic challenges faced by Scotland, particularly due to Brexit. She noted that Scotland had been experiencing population growth through immigration but this has declined post-Brexit referendum. Ms Whitford emphasised the importance of attracting young migrants to settle in Scotland for its economic stability, especially in sectors such as tourism, agriculture, fishing, and healthcare where there is a shortage of skilled workers. She criticised the current points-based system that prioritises earnings over contributions and skills needed in various professions. Ms Whitford also pointed out that Scotland's proposed immigration policy based on residence was rejected without consideration, despite support from civic organisations.
Kevin Foster
Con
Torbay and South Devon
The Government will not devolve immigration control to Scotland, as it would create an overly complex system and additional burdens for businesses, employers, and migrants. The UK's points-based immigration system serves the needs of the entire United Kingdom, including Scotland. There is a graduate route available for those who have been in the country on a tier 4 visa studying a course, which has increased by 14% over the last year to over 220,000. The Government will also look carefully at recommendations such as an immigration pilot for remote communities and increasing the seasonal agricultural workers pilot to 10,000.
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