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BBC
21 July 2020
Lead MP
Daisy Cooper
Debate Type
General Debate
Tags
Culture, Media & SportBenefits & Welfare
Other Contributors: 70
At a Glance
Daisy Cooper raised concerns about bbc in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Lead Contributor
Opened the debate
The debate focuses on the changes made by the BBC regarding the free TV licences for over-75s, which are set to end from August. The BBC's decision will affect four out of five elderly citizens previously eligible for a free licence, and this raises concerns about the impact on vulnerable older people during the ongoing pandemic. The debate also touches on the overall financial implications for the BBC, including cuts in regional programming and job losses.
Maldon
Acknowledges the vital role of the BBC during the pandemic, mentioning its contribution to countering disinformation and providing public health information. Criticises the BBC's decision to end free TV licences for over-75s from August but emphasises that this was a decision made by the corporation based on previous agreements. Stresses the importance of regional programming and representation across all parts of the UK.
Lindsay Hoyle
Speaker
Chorley
Noted that the Minister exceeded his time limit, reminding him to adhere to a three-minute rule despite having spoken for five minutes.
Daisy Cooper
Lib Dem
St Albans
Criticises the BBC's decision to end free TV licences for over-75s from August and argues that such decisions should be made by the Government, not the BBC. Questions whether the BBC is equipped to handle welfare-related issues. Emphasises the financial implications of this decision on the BBC’s budget and its subsequent impact on programming cuts and job losses.
Maldon
Defends the 2015 funding settlement, stating that it was a result of lengthy negotiations with the BBC. Indicates disappointment over the BBC's decision to remove the concession but suggests ongoing discussions for future licence fee settlements.
Damian Hinds
Con
East Hampshire
Highlights the importance of local programming in providing essential information and fostering community closeness during the crisis, questioning whether quality TV and radio at a local level will remain central to BBC output.
Maldon
I would say to anybody facing that kind of choice that they will almost certainly be entitled to pension credit, and if they are not currently in receipt of it, they should perhaps look to see whether they are eligible to receive it. It is the case that a number of pensioners on low incomes do not currently receive it. One of the consequences of this is that the BBC will write to every single one of the over-75s to inform them that they are potentially still eligible for a free TV licence if they are on pension credit, so this will perhaps be the best marketing tool for pension credit that we have ever seen.
Gareth Davies
Con
Grantham and Bourne
Many of my constituents and people across Lincolnshire are dismayed at the BBC’s decision to scrap free licences for the over-75s. Can my right hon. Friend assure me and my constituents that he has engaged with the BBC and made those concerns very clear on behalf of many of our constituents?
Maldon
I do not think the BBC will have been in any doubt about the Government’s view. I and the Secretary of State have regular discussions with the chairman and the director-general. I fully recognise that this was a very difficult choice for the BBC—it represented a massive amount of money to maintain free TV licences in their entirety—but, as I said earlier, I think there were other options available that would have made this at least a little less painful for those who now are going to be required to pay the full cost of the TV licence, having previously not had to pay anything at all.
Jeff Smith
Lab
Manchester Withington
The Government have been completely disingenuous about this issue all along. Let us be honest: the BBC was given no choice but to take on responsibility for TV licences. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester is absolutely right: the Government should not be outsourcing their welfare policy or, indeed, their manifesto promises to the BBC. Funding for the BBC’s UK public services is now around 24% less in real terms than if the cost of the licence fee had risen with inflation from 2010, and the BBC is facing £800 million of cuts. Given all that, does the Minister seriously expect that the BBC would be able to keep funding free TV licences for all over-75s? Can he tell us that with a straight face?
Maldon
I can say to the hon. Gentleman that the BBC asked for a number of concessions—the unfreezing of the licence fee, to which he referred, the closing of the iPlayer loophole and other saving reductions —that resulted in its income increasing. The cost of giving free TV licences to those aged over 75, which was introduced only in 2008, was rising inexorably and would soon be approaching £1 billion. I have to ask all Opposition Members whether, if they believe that the free TV licences should continue, they are committing that a future Labour Government, or even a future Liberal Democrat Government, might one day pay to restore them, at a cost, by then, of well over £1 billion.
Simon Fell
Con
Cumbria
I associate myself with the comments of my colleagues who have raised the prospect of job cuts at regional news services. At a time when local media are struggling, we need trusted local news services, which keep places such as Cumbria informed, provide companionship and hold those in power to account. In a place like Cumbria, any cuts will fall disproportionately on the excellent local teams, because there are so few people there already. Does my right hon. Friend the Minister agree that salami-slicing such organisations will help no one, including the BBC if it wants to meet its public service remit?
Maldon
I agree with my hon. Friend. I have discussed the proposed reductions with the director for England and the director of nations and regions for the BBC. It is obviously a matter for them, but in my view although the BBC may have to find savings across its budget, that does not mean that every area of expenditure should be reduced. There are areas in which the BBC could save more and there are areas where any cuts would have a damaging effect. I fear that regional coverage is in that latter category, so the BBC should prioritise it. We will continue to make that clear to the BBC.
Chris Law
SNP
Dundee Central
Almost 3,500 pensioner households in my constituency of Dundee West will be dramatically affected by the loss of TV licences. These are pensioners who receive one of the worst pensions in Europe, are likely to suffer from loneliness and disabilities, and are shielding as a result of covid-19. Surely this pandemic has shown us that television is not a luxury and the UK Government must recognise their public health responsibility to ensure that everyone receives vital information. Will the Minister assure my constituents that the UK Government will reverse the decision and provide the financial support to allow the concession to continue for those who can least afford it?
Maldon
As I say, the matter was extensively debated during the passage of the Digital Economy Act 2017, and it was Parliament that agreed that the responsibility should be transferred to the BBC, so that is not likely to be reversed. It is a matter for the BBC as to how it goes about this. The Government are disappointed and believe that alternative options were available. I encourage the pensioners in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency to check whether they are entitled to receive pension credit and therefore to maintain a free TV licence. The exemption was introduced only 12 years ago, at an age that was relatively arbitrary at the time; it did not need to be set at that age and that is something else that the BBC might have considered.
Robert Courts
Con
Oxford West and Abingdon
My constituents are dismayed at the BBC’s decisions in respect of licences for over-75s and the proposed cuts to local coverage. Does the Minister agree that after having so recently received that “strong deal” in the renegotiation, the BBC ought to have raised this issue before it was three years into the period if it was not intending to continue with the obligations it has set out?
Maldon
To give the BBC some credit, it did hold quite a lengthy consultation in which it put forward a number of options as to the future of the exemption. In my view, some of those other options were greatly preferable to the one that the BBC finally chose, which was the decision to abolish it in its entirety. I think the BBC could have done more. I am at least assured that the BBC has now said that every person over 75 who currently has a free TV licence will receive a letter: first, to point out that they can still receive one if they are on pension credit, and secondly, to say that no action will be taken in pursuit of the BBC’s requiring a licence until after those letters have been dispatched and received.
Ruth Jones
Lab
Newport West
Thank you for granting this urgent question today, Mr Speaker. The TV licence and the services provided by the BBC have been a lifeline to many in my constituency of Newport West in recent months. Can the Minister tell me what discussions have taken place with the Welsh Government in recent weeks to ensure that Welsh regional programmes are maintained and my constituents are not penalised by the shabby approach to public broadcasting from this Government?
Maldon
It is not a devolved matter. However, I did have an extremely good conversation this morning with Rhodri Williams, the new chair of S4C, which of course also benefits from the licence fee.
Anthony Mangnall
Con
Tattenhall and District
I know you are a man who likes to Netflix and chill, Mr Speaker, but with the rise of on-demand services such as Amazon Prime and Netflix, is it still right that we are criminalising non-payment of the fee for the BBC?
Maldon
As my hon. Friend is aware, the issue of decriminalisation has been subject to a lengthy consultation. The Government are now considering the very large number of responses to that consultation and we will bring forward our proposals once we have completed that consideration.
Lilian Greenwood
Lab
Nottingham South
The Minister called on the BBC to do more to support older people, but perhaps he should start by putting his own house in order. More than 1 million of the poorest pensioners missed out on £2.5 billion of pension credit in 2017-18 and now they will not get a free TV licence either. Instead of his crocodile tears about the cuts that the Government have forced on the BBC, will the Minister be asking the BBC to run regular public information announcements at peak times, encouraging people to apply for pension credit?
Maldon
The hon. Lady raises a good point, in that some of the communications that the BBC had promised to carry out are now going to be impossible due to social distancing, so we will be looking to the BBC to run public information campaigns of that kind. As I said, the BBC is also sending a letter to every single person over 75, telling them what their options are.
Damian Green
Con
Ashford
I sympathise with my right hon. Friend the Minister, who is being asked to simultaneously ensure that the BBC spends more money on free licences and more money on programmes. Not only is that mathematically incompatible, it is not within his power at all. Does he agree that the real welfare issue is to ensure that poorer pensioners continue to receive the benefits of the BBC, which are important to many of them, and that therefore the practical way to help poorer pensioners is for both the BBC and Members of Parliament to ensure that as many as possible of those who are entitled to pension credit actually claim pension credit?
Maldon
My right hon. Friend will know from the many times that he has stood here that being asked to do impossible, contradictory things is quite frequent. The point he makes is absolutely right. It is very important that all those people entitled to pension credit should take it up and I believe that one of the consequences of this matter is that that will be achieved.
Maldon
The Government seek to publicise pension credit availability widely, but the BBC will write a letter to every pensioner over 75. The Government regrets the decision taken and hope the BBC will look at it again in the next licence fee settlement.
Richard Holden
Con
Basildon and Billericay
My constituents, particularly those shielding and elderly, have relied on television during the pandemic. I joined with my hon. Friend to call on the BBC to reconsider its decision for over-75s.
Emma Hardy
Lab
Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice
The BBC programme “Inside Out” highlighted the mesh implant scandal, now under threat due to rising costs and income cuts. The link between these factors is clear.
The BBC could make significant savings from its £5 billion annual spend, and greater transparency would help identify those savings.
Munira Wilson
Lib Dem
Twickenham
BBC Bitesize has been invaluable during lockdown. The continued pressure on funding will put the wider revival of the creative arts sector at risk, as many jobs are in jeopardy.
Martin Vickers
Con
Brigg and Immingham
I moved from a friend to an extremely critical friend of the BBC. It has lost its way and should review the over-75 issue, providing better service to its core audience.
The Conservative party manifesto promised free TV licences for over-75s funded by the BBC. Elderly people learned they are losing their free TV licence. What did the Government do to save this scheme?
Fay Jones
Con
Brecon and Radnorshire
Recent BBC programming portrays farming and agriculture wrongly. The BBC needs to ensure it is giving every taxpayer value for money.
Age UK reports that older people on low incomes will have to forgo essentials or try to survive without a TV due to the cost of a licence fee. An alternative way must be found to get vital information to these people.
Jack Brereton
Con
Stoke-on-Trent South
The BBC's funding mechanism is archaic in a world where subscription is becoming the norm. Reform and identifying better ways to fund the BBC are well overdue.
Sammy Wilson
DUP
East Antrim
Many constituents are fed up with the BBC’s begging-bowl behaviour, political bias, reckless spending, and overpaid directors. No pensioner who cannot afford the levy should be criminalised for non-payment.
Maldon
Sympathised with concerns about political bias and regional news cuts. Mentioned the charter renewal disclosure of high-paid BBC staff and encouraged constituents to voice complaints to the BBC or Ofcom.
Expressed concern over older constituents facing higher licence fees and reduced programmes, questioning if it should be part of the charter review to consider what licence payers want to see. Criticised disproportionate burden on regional news programmes for cost savings.
Maldon
Expressed concern over reductions in regional programming budget, suggested need for unequal distribution of cuts and further discussion with the BBC to find areas for savings.
Rachel Hopkins
Lab
Luton South and South Bedfordshire
Highlighted reliance on local councils during the covid crisis and questioned Government consultation regarding regional news job losses threat to democracy.
Maldon
Discussed implications of reductions with BBC directors, highlighted BBC's local democracy reporting service to address concerns about local council accountability.
Gareth Bacon
Con
Orpington
Asked for a fundamental review of how the BBC is funded in time for its 2027 charter renewal, considering changing media landscape and viewer choice.
Maldon
Agreed that changes in broadcasting landscape necessitate a review. Mentioned public service broadcasting review considering future funding needs of the BBC.
Rupa Huq
Lab
Ealing Central and Acton
Challenged assumptions about shrinking audiences and young viewers' preferences during the pandemic, criticised cuts hitting lower band journalists while higher bands are unaffected.
Maldon
Acknowledged increased viewing figures during lockdown but agreed with the need for management to bear some of the burden. Emphasised the invaluable service provided by regional journalists.
Asked about affordability of TV licences and suggested BBC should focus on its strengths rather than attempting to do everything.
Maldon
Agreed that with increased choice, the BBC may need to reconsider areas where it provides programming content. Hoped the incoming director-general would consider this carefully.
Matt Western
Lab
Warwick and Leamington
Highlighted the value of the BBC in 1968 compared to now, questioned whether the current level of licence fee represents good value for money despite its services.
Maldon
Stated difficulty in judging value for money when it is a legal requirement to pay. Suggested that voluntary spending would be a better indicator of value.
Critiqued the BBC's decision not to honour its commitment to fund free TV licences for over-75s, asked about decriminalising non-payment and scrapping licence fees.
Maldon
Agreed with constituents' anger, confirmed Government was seriously considering decriminalisation of non-payment and would announce soon on consultation responses.
Raised concerns about BBC's decision to discontinue a religious programme during lockdown impacting isolated elderly members of her community.
Maldon
Acknowledged the importance of public service obligations for religious broadcasting but suggested raising the matter directly with the BBC.
Agreed that the BBC does many things well but criticised decisions on over-75s, regional news cuts and tax settlements to former BBC presenters. Suggested it is out of touch.
Maldon
Commented on the National Audit Office's criticism regarding settlement of tax bills for BBC employees through public service companies, emphasised proper use of licence fee funds as a responsibility.
Chris Elmore
Lab
Bridgend
Asked about DWP campaign to increase uptake of pension credits and suggested the Government should take action rather than relying on BBC communication.
Maldon
Acknowledged that the BBC's decision to write letters to pensioners might address the issue raised, suggesting it fulfils what was asked for.
Kieran Mullan
Con
Bexhill and Battle
I raised concerns about the BBC's decision to spend £90 million on rebuilding the set for “Eastenders,” suggesting that it would be better for the organisation to focus on raising additional income rather than cutting free TV licences for pensioners.
Maldon
I emphasised that the NAO had access to BBC’s books to identify areas of extravagance or waste, and welcomed the fact that the BBC is maintaining its local radio network despite the financial pressures from covid-19. I also stated that the BBC needs to continue supporting the local democracy reporting service to ensure there are reporters in local council chambers.
Diana R. Johnson
Lab
Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham
I highlighted the importance of local BBC TV and radio in Hull during crises, such as flooding in 2007 and the covid-19 pandemic this year, and warned about the growing crisis in local news due to parallel cutbacks in local newspapers and commercial media. I questioned how the Minister plans to protect news coverage in places like Hull.
Bob Stewart
Con
Orpington
I asked for an assessment of the value for money of moving BBC operations from London to Salford Quays and its effectiveness in bringing the organisation closer to provincial audiences.
Steve McCabe
Lab
Birmingham Selly Oak
I questioned why people in the Midlands contribute £1 billion in licence fees but only get back 15% in jobs and production opportunities, finding this completely unacceptable.
Scott Benton
Con
Mole Valley
My constituents question the outdated regressive tax used to fund the BBC, arguing that its values are increasingly detached from those of many people. I raised concerns over the decision to renege on funding free TV licences for those aged 75 and over.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
I criticised the BBC’s decisions to axe the free TV licence for the over-75s and make substantial reductions in national and regional news, accusing the Government of failing to protect pensioners from isolation as promised.
Harriett Baldwin
Con
West Worcestershire
I expressed concern about criminalising older people who are frail or suffer from developing dementia if they do not pay the licence fee, urging the Minister to review the enforcement of this tax.
Kirsten Oswald
SNP
East Renfrewshire
I highlighted the importance of TV as a lifeline for pensioners during the pandemic and criticised the Government’s inaction regarding the BBC's decision to remove free licences for those over 75.
Andy Carter
Lab
Gower
I emphasised the critical role of regional news by the BBC, especially considering the financial pressure on advertising-funded media. I suggested that Ofcom should review proposed changes to ensure the public service broadcaster is fulfilling its obligations.
Wendy Chamberlain
Lib Dem
North East Fife
I pointed out that real-terms public funding for the BBC has dropped by 30% since 2010 and called on the Minister to confirm this fact.
Suzanne Webb
Con
Watford
I stressed the importance of impartiality, independence and freedom from bias in BBC reporting to ensure it remains a trusted news source.
Peter Bottomley
Con
Worthing West
I reminded the Minister that his suggestion as a Back Bencher on 11 June 2019 was for the cost of the concession to be rising to £1 billion and suggested considering tax allowances based on licence fee value.
Maldon
Acknowledged that while the number of people going to prison for non-payment is small, he hoped the BBC would be flexible in enforcing its new policy and take into account the needs of pensioners. Assured that there will be consideration given to the future of public service broadcasting and funding.
Government Response
I would say to anybody facing that kind of choice that they will almost certainly be entitled to pension credit, and if they are not currently in receipt of it, they should perhaps look to see whether they are eligible to receive it. It is the case that a number of pensioners on low incomes do not currently receive it. One of the consequences of this is that the BBC will write to every single one of the over-75s to inform them that they are potentially still eligible for a free TV licence if they are on pension credit, so this will perhaps be the best marketing tool for pension credit that we have ever seen. The Government deeply regret the decision taken to cancel free TV licences for over-75s. We hope the BBC will consider it again in the next licence fee settlement. The Minister responded to various points, reiterating the BBC's responsibility to represent all regions of the UK and ensuring impartial reporting. He also expressed regret over decisions made by the BBC regarding over-75s and regional programming, while emphasising that Parliament had made clear it was the responsibility of the broadcaster.
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