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Participation in Debates
16 November 2020
Lead MP
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
No tags
Other Contributors: 46
At a Glance
Jacob Rees-Mogg raised concerns about participation in debates in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Government Statement
Jacob Rees-Mogg acknowledged the challenges posed by the pandemic to parliamentary democracy and highlighted efforts made to maintain scrutiny through hybrid proceedings. He emphasised two key principles: exploring what is possible within constraints and adhering to public health guidance. The minister committed to supporting additional virtual participation for clinically extremely vulnerable MPs, aiming to bring a motion before the House. This would enable the Government to legislate effectively and ensure Parliament's accountability.
John Baron
Con
Basildon and Billericay
Question
Baron questioned why MPs with proxy votes cannot contribute to Chamber debates virtually, despite being able to ask questions of the Prime Minister and participate in votes. He argued that the current measures do not balance parliamentary work with pandemic restrictions sensibly.
Minister reply
Rees-Mogg agreed to meet Baron either virtually or by telephone. He acknowledged the difficulties but emphasised practical constraints and the need for a covid-secure workplace. Rees-Mogg noted the importance of passing legislation and holding the Government accountable, referencing the period when Backbench business days were cancelled. He argued that MPs should follow government guidelines similarly to other key workers.
Valerie Vaz
Lab
Walsall and Bloxwich
Question
I thank the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay for securing the urgent question and you, Mr Speaker, for granting it. Why did the Leader of the House think it was necessary to make some sort of announcement on Twitter without having the courtesy to let the House know?
Minister reply
Indeed. We all wish all hon. Members who are suffering from covid a speedy recovery and let us hope that those who are isolating have not caught the disease.
Peter Bottomley
Con
Worthing West
Question
I think the whole House will welcome the flexibility that is following on from my right hon. Friend’s review of the situation. May I put it to him that it might be better, when he has developed proposals in consultation with you, Mr Speaker, and the House authorities, for them to be put to the House for debate, with the possibility of amendment?
Minister reply
I am extremely grateful to the Father of the House for his question and his, I think, generous comments. I will certainly interpret them that way, though they may have been slightly two-edged.
Tommy Sheppard
SNP
Edinburgh East
Question
Well, at least the Leader of the House has now accepted that, if Members are not able to be physically present, it is because of legitimate concerns they have about their own and the public’s health, rather than because they are work-shy and trying to avoid their responsibilities.
Minister reply
I am afraid I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The default position should be that Members attend the House to carry out the business of the House.
Karen Bradley
Con
Staffordshire Moorlands
Question
I thank the many Members who contacted my Committee following our call for evidence, wanting to see exactly this change. I am sure that they were very pleased when they saw the news on Twitter last night.
Minister reply
My right hon. Friend is right to raise that point about Select Committees. There is a limit to the broadcasting resources within the House and what they can do.
Barry Sheerman
Lab
Harrow West
Question
The Leader of the House will know that I am a long-serving Member of Parliament and an active parliamentarian who so much wants to be back in the Chamber doing the job that I have been doing for over 40 years. But can I say that, if anything is sub-optimal here, it is the Leader of the House? The fact of the matter is: he knows it is the Speaker’s view—Mr Speaker, I hope I can quote you on this—that this is not a safe environment for us to attend. That is the fact of the matter and that is the truth. I would have to say to the Leader of the House that my responsibility, my key and prime duty, is to my constituents. He is the man who is stopping me serving as a full Member of Parliament. Indeed, I would not be able to do my Select Committee if it had not been for, not him, but the Speaker and his intercession. The fact of the matter is he is sub-optimal—he should resign.
Minister reply
Thank you, Mr Speaker. That clarification is extremely helpful because the Clerk of the House, I think, would be extremely nervous if it were being said that this were not a covid-secure workplace. The work that has been done to ensure that has been absolutely extraordinary, and we ought to thank once again the House authorities, but also the Doorkeepers who have stewarded our Divisions, the security staff and the cleaning people who have worked incredibly hard and who have been here even when we have not been. The hon. Gentleman has expressed his view very clearly. It is not one I share.
Tracey Crouch
Ind
Thirsk and Malton
Question
I am slightly embarrassed by the kind comments about my question on Thursday because others—my good friend, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan), and my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), whose UQ it is—have been raising this issue for some time and really it is they, rather than I, who deserve plaudits. That said, may I thank the Leader of the House for calling me on Saturday to advise me of his intention to allow Members who are clinically extremely vulnerable to participate in proceedings here in the Chamber? I am looking forward to being able to raise important issues on behalf of my constituents as and when I can during the rest of my treatment. I am sorry if I missed it, but could the Leader of the House confirm when the changes will come in? While I absolutely recognise his points about the technical challenges of participation in Westminster Hall, could he please reassure the House that he will continue to explore options for participation in the second Chamber? While here, will he join me in thanking the extraordinary efforts of the digital and broadcasting teams, who have done amazing things to allow Members to be here by, as the Prime Minister puts it, the “magic of modern technology”?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is enormously gracious in her thanks to the digital and broadcasting team, who not only have managed to introduce this new system since March, but have had to move offices at the same point and kept it going seamlessly. It is one of the smaller teams within the House service, so I think what they have managed to do is absolutely phenomenal. I hope to introduce the motions as soon as possible. They are being written, I think, by wise Clerks as I am speaking. It is important, I think—I hope this answers my hon. Friend’s question about Westminster Hall—to recognise that, if we do it quickly, it must be limited. If we were to try to look at Westminster Hall, that would take considerably longer because we would need additional resources. But, as I have said before, things are under review, particularly for those whom the Government are advising not to go into work, and that is the extremely clinically vulnerable.
Margaret Hodge
Lab
Bishop's Stortford
Question
Since the Leader of the House deliberately chose to exclude some MPs from debates, I have been trying to do my work in different ways. However, for example, it has taken up to five months to extract a response to my letters, not just on covid issues but on matters that are equally vital to my constituents, such as the combustible cladding scandal and the survival of local football clubs. I welcome warmly today’s announcement, particularly in relation to MPs with cancer and other conditions, but what about the rest of us who are simply heeding the Government’s advice in not coming into the House? I have to say to the Leader of the House that we are not like other key workers, who can be replaced if they cannot attend; MPs have no substitutes. How can he continue to justify deliberately preventing my constituents from being properly and thoroughly represented in Parliament?
Minister reply
I very much doubt that any of the right hon. Lady’s constituents would say that she does not represent them effectively. She has always been a powerful campaigner and an effective voice of the Opposition and of the Labour party over many years, so I do not think anybody would dream of saying that. May I answer the right hon. Lady’s question in parts? First, as relates to correspondence, that has been a problem that has been raised on the Floor of the House on a number of occasions. I have taken it up with all members of the Cabinet to emphasise the importance of timely responses to Members—not just to their written correspondence but to written questions. I reiterate the promise that I have made to all hon. and right hon. Members that if anyone has a particular problem with a particular Department, my office will take that up for them.
Roger Gale
Con
Herne Bay and Sandwich
Question
In his opening remarks, the Leader of the House referred to the possibility of maximising what was possible. Mr Speaker, through your good offices and that of your technical team, we know that a hybrid Parliament is perfectly— [Inaudible.] Not only that; it is exercised, for example, at Prime Minister’s Question Time every week. But hitherto, those of us who are not able to attend have been denied the opportunity to take part in debates. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan) and my—[Inaudible.]—are both senior members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Throughout the last six months, we have been taking part in plenary sessions, debates and committee hearings perfectly satisfactorily in a hybrid fashion. I cannot believe that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House would suggest that this House is not capable of doing something that Europe is capable of, so my question to him is simply this. At the last vote, 200 Members were denied the opportunity to attend, speak or vote. This time, following the lead taken by the Father of the House, will he make sure that there is a proper debate and that every Member of Parliament who wishes to do so is enabled to participate and to vote?
Minister reply
My right hon. Friend was momentarily interrupted, and that is one of the problems with remote participation; the quality of the audio is not invariably perfect. Although that works during Question Time, it is not a good enough way of having a debate, nor did we find when we had the hybrid Parliament that debates of legislation worked effectively. I would also point out that when we had the hybrid Parliament, we were meeting for only three days a week, and we were very short on Opposition days and had no Backbench Business days, both of which have now been restored.
Wera Hobhouse
Lib Dem
Bath
Question
With due respect, I disagree with the Leader of the House. It has been proved that we can vote remotely, thanks to the wonderful work of the digital team, and that is what we should return to, but may I ask a question about Westminster Hall debates, which seem to be the crux of many of the issues that have been raised? If we cannot bring Westminster Hall debates back because of technical issues, will the Leader of the House please look into how Westminster Hall-style debates were brought back before October by conducting them in Committee Room 5, where there are the technical possibilities?
Minister reply
There is an element of choice, as to what the House wants. We brought back Westminster Hall because regular representations were made to me that people wanted to have Westminster Hall back. If the House does not want Westminster Hall, that would be a matter for the House, but I would be very surprised if that were the case. The hon. Lady opened her comments by saying she disagreed with me. Dare I say it, Mr Speaker, but that is very reassuring. She is, after all, a Liberal Democrat, and I am always very nervous if a Liberal Democrat agrees with me.
Question
It has been said in this House that it is the duty of Members to participate physically in debates to show people that it is safe to return to work. With England in full lockdown and “work from home” a message across the UK, is it not the duty of every Member to show that working remotely can be done effectively?
Minister reply
The advice is absolutely clear that people should work from home if they can do so effectively, but this Chamber does not work effectively when people are not physically present. To reiterate the points I have already made, to ensure that the Government are held to account and that the Government’s legislative programme can be proceeded with, we need to be here physically, because otherwise both of those cannot happen properly.
Bernard Jenkin
Con
Harwich and North Essex
Question
May I report to the House through you, Mr Speaker, that the Liaison Committee met last week and discussed this matter at some length? Will my right hon. Friend respect how strongly many Chairs of Select Committees feel that a significant number of them are unable to carry out their constitutional function, because they cannot risk exposing themselves or their families to covid infection?
Minister reply
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am very concerned and sorry to hear that so many members of the Liaison Committee are extremely clinically vulnerable. That is certainly troubling, but I hope that the steps that are being proposed and will be taken will be helpful to them.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
I applaud the Leader of the House and also you, Mr Speaker, for the guidance and leadership that have been given. Does the Leader of the House not agree that engagement in this place is what we are elected to do, and that the proper process should be followed?
Minister reply
The hon. Gentleman is an absolute model of parliamentary engagement and of the ability to stand up for constituents and ensure that they are represented. He does it with aplomb and vigour. Yes, we need to ensure that there is as much engagement as possible, and the point I am trying to get across is that having a functioning, active democratic Chamber is not simply nice to have.
Question
I would like to echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), the Chairman of the Liaison Committee. I am one of those Select Committee Chairs who do not feel that we are able to fulfil our function—not as a bauble of Parliament as the Leader of the House has just suggested—because we are unable to attend for medical reasons.
Minister reply
I completely sympathise with my right hon. Friend. It must be very frustrating not being able to participate in the activities of the House, and I hope that the proposals being brought forward to help those who are extremely clinically vulnerable will be of assistance. It is important that this House actively holds the Government to account and scrutinises them.
Dawn Butler
Lab
Brent East
Question
It has been fascinating listening to the Leader of the House, and I cannot help but think that he is not only gaslighting MPs but gaslighting the whole country in his responses. Paragraph 4.7 of “Erskine May” says that the Leader of the House is primarily responsible for the arrangement of government business
Minister reply
I reiterate the point I made earlier: I am always willing to meet hon. and right hon. Members, in part because of what it says in “Erskine May” about the responsibilities of the Leader of the House, which I am well aware of. That is why I have made it so clear that I expect Ministers to respond in a reasonably punctual way to Members’ letters and other communications.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Question
It is somewhat ironic that when my right hon. Friend brings forward his proposals the only people who will not be allowed to participate in the debate are those who are forced to shield. They will therefore not be able to participate in the decision making, other than having a proxy vote.
Minister reply
My hon. Friend makes a very good point about the timeliness, and I am very keen to ensure that this motion is brought forward soon so that it can be decided by this House soon. He makes the point that things may change again on 3 December.
Vicky Foxcroft
Lab
Lewisham North
Question
Welcomes the Leader of the House's decision to allow increased remote participation but criticises it for not being implemented sooner. Questions whether these arrangements will remain in place until the end of the pandemic.
Minister reply
Reiterates that measures would be in place until 30 March, emphasising uncertainty due to potential changes in circumstances by then.
Question
Critiques UK productivity and highlights inefficiencies caused by current voting systems. Questions whether productivity and democratic processes could be improved with a better remote participation system.
Minister reply
Argues for the importance of physical presence for meeting Ministers, speaking to them, lobbying, and raising complaints.
Debbie Abrahams
Lab
Oldham East and Saddleworth
Question
Challenges the Leader of the House's misquoting of covid guidance and questions the impact of remote participation on equality legislation. Asks why the Commons is not adopting a fully virtual system like the Lords.
Minister reply
Explains that the Commons' system does not break down as the Lords' system does, and argues that legislation needs proper debate before enactment.
Alicia Kearns
Con
Rutland and Stamford
Question
Requests a specific exemption mechanism for MPs who are advised by medical professionals to stay at home due to health risks during pregnancy.
Minister reply
Encourages consultation with doctors, suggesting that if deemed extremely clinically vulnerable, the proposed measures would cover her.
Andrew Gwynne
Ind
Gorton and Denton
Question
Expresses ongoing difficulties due to long covid, highlighting the importance of remote participation in debates and Select Committees.
Minister reply
Expresses sympathy for Andrew's situation and emphasises the need to balance effective debates with following guidance.
Question
Questions the feasibility of full remote participation in Westminster Hall debates due to technological constraints and resource limitations.
Minister reply
Explains that resources are limited, highlighting the challenge of balancing current facilities with remote participation requirements for Westminster Hall.
Edward Leigh
Con
Gainsborough
Question
Welcomed the Leader of the House's statement but urged him not to extend virtual debating to everyone, emphasising the importance of setting an example and being physically present in Parliament.
Minister reply
Defended the need for MPs to be physically present, arguing that they are key workers like others who have to travel during the pandemic. Acknowledged the concern about creating two separate worlds but maintained the necessity of physical presence.
Christine Jardine
Lib Dem
Edinburgh West
Question
Asked for consideration for MPs from constituencies far from London, especially those with underlying health conditions and key workers.
Minister reply
Acknowledged the difficulties but emphasised that other constituents are also facing similar challenges. Stressed the importance of democracy continuing to function despite restrictions.
Question
Called for a more flexible approach, suggesting that video calls should be allowed for those who cannot travel due to health reasons or logistical constraints.
Minister reply
Clarified that the House is not operating normally and acknowledged the challenges faced by Select Committees. However, maintained the importance of MPs being physically present in Parliament.
Caroline Nokes
Con
Romsey and Southampton North
Question
Asked why reasonable adjustments are not made for pregnant or disabled workers in Parliament similar to other key sectors.
Minister reply
Defended the provisions made, stating that they ensure people can participate in debates safely.
Chris Bryant
Lab
Rhondda and Ogmore
Question
Asked for an equal right for all Members to debate until the end of the parliamentary session, suggesting remote voting as a solution.
Minister reply
Responded by pointing out the inconsistency in the hon. Member's position on changes.
Question
Welcomed the move and emphasised the importance of Parliament being open but asked for consideration to avoid giving an impression that only 'survival of the fittest' is valued.
Minister reply
Agreed with the need for physical presence in Parliament but reassured that no macho attitude was intended.
Janet Daby
Lab
Lewisham East
Question
Disagreed with the Leader of the House's approach and asked him to apologise for implying that shielding MPs were shirking their duty.
Minister reply
Clarified his stance on remote participation being offered to clinically extremely vulnerable members, denying accusations of shirking.
Mark Harper
Con
Faversham and Mid Kent
Question
I welcome the Leader of the House's initiative but am concerned about excluding those with family members who are clinically extremely vulnerable from remote participation. I also worry about compelling people to disclose sensitive medical information publicly.
Minister reply
The guidance is for those who are themselves clinically extremely vulnerable, not their family members. Disclosing medical details will be minimal and voluntary.
Barbara Keeley
Lab
Worsley and Eccles South
Question
After my recent cancer treatment, I have been advised to reduce contacts due to the pandemic but am not clinically extremely vulnerable. I call for an extension of remote participation to all MPs who cannot travel safely.
Minister reply
The House must follow guidance similar to that given to constituents; it is necessary for proper democratic accountability and effective legislative progress.
Sarah Jones
Lab
Croydon West
Question
Why did the Leader of the House exclude me from remote participation, despite being advised to self-isolate due to the pandemic?
Minister reply
The House needs to operate physically for legislative effectiveness and adherence to manifesto commitments. Remote operation in May-June was less effective.
Flick Drummond
Con
Charnwood
Question
Could we extend debates so that more Members can contribute, especially those unable to attend due to self-isolation?
Minister reply
Balancing debate duration and contribution opportunities is difficult. The House aims to facilitate contributions while managing legislative priorities.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham
Question
Why does the Leader of the House insist on physical attendance despite Government guidance advising people to work from home if possible?
Minister reply
Physical presence is necessary for legislative effectiveness and adherence to Government guidelines.
Robin Millar
Con
Worcester
Question
Can the Leader of the House confirm his efforts to balance competing interests in facilitating remote participation while managing legislative time constraints?
Minister reply
Balancing is key, aiming for both Member participation and effective legislative progress.
Rachael Maskell
Lab Co-op
York Central
Question
Questions the Leader of the House about breaches in the 'hands, face, space' criteria and criticises him for discussing a Member's clinical diagnosis from the Dispatch Box. Suggests an investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission into discrimination practices and calls for a virtual commission to accommodate those who require it.
Minister reply
Acknowledges concerns but emphasises extensive precautions taken by House of Commons authorities, including mask-wearing, distancing measures, and hand washing protocols, stating that these efforts ensure a covid-secure workplace.
Question
Welcomes the prospect of clinically extremely vulnerable individuals participating remotely in Parliament as a temporary measure and asks for assurance on when and how this Chamber will return to normal operations.
Minister reply
Reaffirms commitment to returning to full capacity but notes that timing depends on public health guidelines; expresses pride in continued democratic processes during the pandemic.
Question
Asks for clarification on who will decide which MPs are considered clinically extremely vulnerable and how such decisions will be made.
Minister reply
Emphasises that medical professionals will determine clinical vulnerability based on patient health conditions, not the Leader of the House.
Question
Suggests maintaining a personal presence in Parliament as key for delivering work and setting an example.
Minister reply
Agrees that Members should maintain their physical presence if possible, advocating for attendance to fulfill parliamentary duties.
Chris Elmore
Lab
Bridgend
Question
Challenges the Leader of the House's methods of announcing changes via Twitter and disputes his claims about blockages in Bill Committee proceedings.
Minister reply
Defends his actions, suggesting that criticism should be directed at himself rather than others.
Question
Endorses the importance of Parliament as an assembly for deliberation and learning, urging those who can to attend in person.
Minister reply
Agrees with the need for physical attendance to facilitate effective parliamentary discussions.
Question
Requests that all Members be able to participate fully in debates and votes regardless of their circumstances, especially concerning EU ratification processes.
Minister reply
Asserts that proxy voting rights are maintained for individual members; ensures that those clinically extremely vulnerable can participate remotely.
Question
Asks the Leader of the House to allow full amendment of motions concerning parliamentary proceedings during the crisis.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the importance of continued scrutiny and expresses his hope for a positive engagement with the opposition.
Drew Hendry
SNP
Inverness N
Question
During the pandemic, MPs who live far from Westminster have faced significant travel challenges. The hon. Member pointed out that he has had to drive over 10 hours on several occasions and highlighted that transport options are severely limited in many constituencies, making it difficult for them to attend Parliament as key workers.
Minister reply
The Minister noted that the distance between Inverness and Westminster has not changed during the pandemic. He thanked SNP Members for their commitment to Parliament and their contribution towards debates and holding the Government accountable.
Laura Farris
Con
Wirral West
Question
Welcoming the Leader of the House's announcement regarding extended rights for clinically extremely vulnerable individuals, the hon. Member asked whether pregnant women, who are not considered clinically extremely vulnerable but may be excluded from participating due to Health and Safety Regulations, should also have the right to participate in debates.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledged the importance of the point raised by his hon. Friend. He explained that currently, only those advised by the Government not to go to work are included under the clinically extremely vulnerable category. However, he added a caveat about maintaining proper debate and a functioning Parliament, suggesting limits on numbers. The Minister was open to considering other categories if the Government advises against them working.
Shadow Comment
John Baron
Shadow Comment
John Baron criticised the current measures that prohibit virtual participation for clinically extremely vulnerable MPs, arguing that it creates an unfair hierarchy among MPs. He welcomed the minister’s announcement to support additional virtual participation but urged further consideration for those shielding with family members or living with others who are clinically vulnerable.
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