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Post Office Court of Appeal Judgment
27 April 2021
Lead MP
Paul Scully
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Crime & Law EnforcementBusiness & Trade
Other Contributors: 32
At a Glance
Paul Scully raised concerns about post office court of appeal judgment in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
On Friday, the Court of Appeal quashed the convictions of 39 postmasters who were wrongly accused due to issues with the Horizon accounting system. The Post Office apologised for these historical prosecutions and acknowledged failings in dealing with affected postmasters. The Government recognised the gravity of the court’s judgment and its impact on individual postmasters and their families, paying tribute to those who fought for justice over years. The minister highlighted ongoing improvements by the Post Office to overhaul culture and procedures and ensure similar incidents do not recur. A compensation scheme was established, with financial support from the government to cover expected costs. The Government also launched an independent inquiry led by ex-High Court judge Sir Wyn Williams to determine what went wrong and establish necessary changes.
Andrew Gwynne
Lab
Denton and Reddish
Question
Will Mr Scully provide details of how many postmasters are still in prison, their total jail time, and the total legal costs incurred due to the Post Office's misconduct?
Minister reply
The minister acknowledged that more detailed information is required about those still affected by these issues. He committed to working closely with the Post Office to address compensation matters promptly for postmasters whose convictions have been quashed.
Kwasi Kwarteng
Con
Spelthorne
Question
Will the minister support the idea of a full statutory public inquiry into this matter?
Minister reply
The minister expressed that an independent inquiry led by Sir Wyn Williams is already in place and progressing swiftly, with hearings planned. He emphasised the importance of reaching conclusions quickly to ensure justice and prevent future occurrences.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West
Question
The hon. Member thanks the Minister for advance sight of his statement. She outlines a historical miscarriage of justice affecting over 900 postmasters, their families, and reputations. The Government’s delays in addressing these issues are criticised, alongside the lack of a proper statutory inquiry with subpoena powers. Questions are raised about the Post Office’s abuse of power, compensation for victims, and accountability of civil servants and Fujitsu. She urges the Minister to apologise and commit to a real public inquiry.
Minister reply
The hon. Lady raises important points about the lengthy ordeal faced by postmasters. The current non-statutory inquiry under Sir Wyn Williams is designed to provide answers quickly. Government departments are cooperating fully with the inquiry, alongside Fujitsu and Post Office Ltd. Future actions will be based on Sir Wyn’s findings. Paula Vennells’ roles and awards may face review by an independent committee.
Peter Bottomley
Con
Worthing West
Question
The hon. Member questions why the issues arose in 1999 when the Post Office withdrew from a contract, resulting in one of the worst private finance initiatives ever. He cites investigative journalists and reports that highlight technical failures and communication problems between terminals and central systems. The need for attention to critical journalism rather than glossy reviews is emphasised.
Minister reply
The inquiry under Sir Wyn Williams is not glossy but thorough. It will get the necessary support to understand the issues, including testimonies from court cases and investigative journalists’ reports such as those mentioned by the hon. Member.
Marion Fellows
Lab
Heywood and Middleton
Question
The hon. Member thanks the Minister for advance sight of his statement and emphasises the need for a direct apology from the Government, given their role as single shareholder in Post Office Ltd and civil servants on its board. She criticises Paula Vennells’ leadership during the period of failure with Horizon and calls for a statutory judge-led inquiry to hold all parties accountable. Further compensation is needed beyond legal costs incurred by sub-postmasters involved in civil actions against Post Office Ltd.
Minister reply
The Government will continue working with Post Office management to ensure transparency and justice for postmasters. While differing on the process, the Minister agrees to discuss this further with the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) on post offices. On compensation, while high litigation costs are a concern, efforts will be made to see that postmasters receive adequate justice.
Andrew Bridgen
Con
Warwicks N and Leamington
Question
Given the huge miscarriage of justice now fully exposed, including the 10-year attempted cover-up by the Post Office, will the Minister concede that only a full public inquiry and independent compensation panel for victims will now suffice finally to lance this boil?
Minister reply
An independent inquiry is looking into the actions of the Post Office and the responsibility of the Government within that. The Post Office has launched a historic shortfall scheme which has started to make payments, and those whose convictions were rightly quashed last Friday will be considering compensation.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Question
Millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money have been wasted on pursuing unnecessary and unjust prosecutions. When will the Government order Post Office Ltd to call off its lawyers who have been instructed to search desperately for a defence to the indefensible?
Minister reply
We will work to ensure that the Post Office does not defend anything that is indefensible, and Sir Wyn Williams' inquiry will produce his report by summer so that we get answers this year.
Lucy Allan
Con
Telford
Question
Some 555 sub-postmasters showed tremendous courage in the group litigation against the Post Office. Will the Minister ask his officials whether his Department authorised the Post Office to use millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money to fight the sub-postmasters, and if not, why not?
Minister reply
The litigation was taken on entirely by Post Office Ltd, and Sir Wyn Williams' independent inquiry will address these questions.
Edinburgh West
Question
Will the Government commit to seeing former sub-postmasters as individuals and treating each case with importance for those who have faced more than a decade of accusations and legal difficulties due to the Post Office’s mismanagement?
Minister reply
The Government will absolutely treat everybody as individuals, recognising that these people have suffered tragically over so long a period.
Jerome Mayhew
Con
Broadland
Question
Although successful in group litigation, victims received only £15,000 compensation. Will the Minister consider looking behind the contractual position to actively compensate these people in full?
Minister reply
Before wider compensation is considered, we need first to understand and learn lessons from what happened over 20 years, as quickly as possible.
Kevan Jones
Lab
North Durham
Question
People’s lives were ruined, with some tragically passing away before their names were cleared. Will the Government put in place a compensation scheme and heed calls for a proper public inquiry to get to the truth?
Minister reply
The non-statutory inquiry led by Sir Wyn Williams cannot compel people to give evidence currently but if that changes, our view will change.
Jacob Young
Con
Edinburgh Pentlands
Question
What more can be done to prevent a similar miscarriage of justice from occurring in the future and how can we thank postal workers for their hard work throughout the pandemic?
Minister reply
We need answers now to give former sub-postmasters justice, draw a line to prove lessons have been learned, and ensure such injustice never happens again.
Zarah Sultana
Lab
Coventry South
Question
Will the Government heed calls for a proper public inquiry into what happened with powers to compel witnesses to give evidence under oath?
Minister reply
The wider lessons from this case, including how private prosecutions work, will be addressed.
Bob Neill
Con
Bromley and Chislehurst
Question
Will the Minister take away our report on private prosecutors' role in justice systems to look at further recommendations to prevent such injustice from ever happening again?
Minister reply
There are clearly wider lessons to be learned, including about who knew what in the Post Office and how private prosecutions work.
Alan Brown
SNP
Kilmarnock and Loudoun
Question
When is the Post Office going to be stripped of these prosecution powers and when will a fair dispute resolution process be put in place?
Minister reply
There have been no private prosecutions in this area for several years, but lessons need to be learned and addressed in the inquiry.
Andrew Mitchell
Con
Sutton Coldfield
Question
Acknowledges the Minister's work but criticises the Government for not doing enough to address the human rights and civil liberties breach of up to 555 litigants. Questions why Lord Arbuthnot's evidence is not being loudly heard in the inquiry.
Minister reply
Commits that Sir Wyn Williams will consider Lord Arbuthnot’s advice, campaign points, and words as part of the ongoing investigation.
Kate Osborne
Lab
Jarrow and Gateshead East
Question
Highlights the need for proper justice for all victims of the scandal by validating their claim under the historical shortfall scheme to prevent two tiers of justice.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the distress caused by this situation, commits to continuing work with the Post Office and other parties to address the issue.
Diana R. Johnson
Lab
Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham
Question
Asks for a full statutory public inquiry instead of a non-statutory one, suggesting that without powers to compel evidence and witnesses, the current inquiry will fail.
Minister reply
Stresses that Sir Wyn Williams is currently receiving full support from all parties involved and that if this changes, their advice will too.
Question
Questions if there should be new provisions in the employment Bill to protect against similar circumstances of defective technology and recalcitrant employers.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the importance of considering wider implications beyond the direct impact on sub-postmasters.
Emma Lewell-Buck
Lab
South Shields
Question
Questions why Government Members might be protected by resisting a statutory public inquiry, given that there has been no accountability for those involved in the scandal.
Minister reply
Commits to ensuring quick answers through the non-statutory inquiry led by Sir Wyn Williams.
Joy Morrissey
Con
Beaconsfield
Question
Thanks Jay Patel and his family for their work in providing vital community services, asks the Minister to continue fighting for justice and compensation.
Minister reply
Commits to ensuring that postmasters are adequately compensated and supported moving forward.
Question
Requests assurance from the Minister that full legal costs will be included in the compensation package for exonerated postmasters.
Minister reply
Commits to working with Post Office to ensure fair compensation, including legal costs.
Question
Asks about mechanisms to compensate victims swiftly and fairly following recent court judgments.
Minister reply
Commitment for the Post Office to engage with appellants and provide fair compensation quickly.
Sammy Wilson
DUP
East Antrim
Question
Highlights the injustice faced by postmasters, calls for full and fair compensation and an inquiry that holds those responsible accountable.
Minister reply
Commits to ensuring no one can hide from the truth and that postmasters receive justice through the ongoing investigation.
Question
Acknowledges the impact of the scandal on victims, praises Ian Ashworth for his work in Holyhead, asks for a commitment that this will never happen again.
Minister reply
Commits to ensuring this can never happen again and provides support for future postmasters.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
Question
Calls for a full statutory inquiry instead of the current non-statutory one, suggesting it prolongs agony for victims.
Minister reply
Asserts that evidence is currently coming forward without need to compel further information.
John Redwood
Con
Wokingham
Question
Will the Minister understand that there has to be compensation, and urgently, and this compensation has to cover not just the Horizon losses but the legal costs and the loss of business and income that people suffered from the damage to their reputation?
Minister reply
Indeed, it is important that the Post Office engages with all the appellants who have had their convictions quashed. As we are getting those answers, we will work to ensure that we can get fair compensation.
Mick Whitley
Lab
Cynon
Question
This gross miscarriage of justice has taken a terrible toll not only on the wrongly convicted sub-postmasters who have endured so much suffering and struggled for so long to see justice, but on the local communities that rely on post offices as precious community resources. In the wake of this scandal, can the Minister tell us what steps the Government are taking to ensure that every community has easy access to a post office?
Minister reply
There are universal access provisions for the Post Office. Although, yes, we are giving them a network waiver because of the effect of covid at the moment, we will make sure that we are up to 11,500 post offices across the country, with access criteria to ensure that the most vulnerable are closest to a post office and have those services that add such social value to their communities.
Greg Smith
Con
Mid Buckinghamshire
Question
Postmasters are coming under increasing pressure and workload as many banks turn their backs on the high streets, not least in the towns of Winslow, Princes Risborough and Buckingham in my constituency. Given that increased pressure and increased workload, will my hon. Friend recommit to holding the Post Office fully to account—not just to give justice to those affected by the Horizon debacle, but to fully support postmasters and win back trust?
Minister reply
Winslow, Princes Risborough and Buckingham are just like many villages and towns across the country, where banks are starting to reduce their branch numbers. I have talked about social value; it is important that the Post Office fills that gap, and provides access to cash and services for the most vulnerable.
Chris Elmore
Lab
Bridgend
Question
I pay tribute to my constituent, Mr John Bowman, who lost his home as well as his business, like the constituents of so many other Members across the House. One of the things that hurt him most, which he has talked about to me extensively, is the way in which the Post Office behaved; it simply looked to the criminal proceedings of those sub-postmasters, who, in the end, we now know had done nothing wrong. Will the Minister confirm that the current inquiry is expressly forbidden from looking at the Post Office’s prosecutorial function? Given this, will the Minister reconsider setting up a fully judicial inquiry into the scandal so that postmasters such as Mr Bowman get the justice they actually deserve?
Minister reply
What I can confirm is that the inquiry will look into the Post Office’s approach and the “who did what” in its approach to the sub-postmasters, because clearly that heavy-handed approach early doors did lead to prosecutions. As I have said, there are wider considerations for the legal process, including private prosecutions, and we will need to learn from this.
Kevin Hollinrake
Con
Thirsk and Malton
Question
I have used this quote already in the Chamber today; Warren Buffett often says: “What we learn from history is that people don’t learn from history.” When we finally discovered the 10-year cover-up of a fraud at Lloyds, we inexplicably let Lloyds run its own compensation scheme, which three years later was determined to be not fair or reasonable, and we had to do it all again. Will my hon. Friend at least put in place independent oversight of this compensation scheme to ensure that all those who have suffered get fair, reasonable and consistent compensation, whether they have been through litigation or not?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend has been consistent in his campaigning in this area, and what I can say is that we will be ensuring that the Post Office provides fair, consistent and speedy compensation within the structures, as will be outlined over the next few weeks and months.
Shadow Comment
Chi Onwurah
Shadow Comment
The shadow minister congratulated postmasters, their families, unions, and MPs for fighting for justice over a decade. However, she criticised the government for delays in investigations, denials of claims, and lack of explanation or apology. She highlighted the need for a statutory public inquiry with subpoena powers to ensure thorough examination of issues, including compensation, prosecutions, and responsibility of civil servants and government. The shadow questioned whether the Government acknowledged its failure in oversight and due diligence regarding Post Office misconduct. Concerns were raised about accountability for software provider Fujitsu and potential consequences for former Post Office leader Paula Vennells. She urged the minister to apologise and commit to a thorough criminal investigation.
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