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Post Office Update
19 May 2021
Lead MP
Paul Scully
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
EmploymentBusiness & Trade
Other Contributors: 31
At a Glance
Paul Scully raised concerns about post office update in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Over a 20-year period, shortfalls in cash recorded by the Post Office's Horizon computerised accounting system led to dismissals and criminal prosecutions of postmasters. The Minister acknowledged the severe impact this has had on those affected and their families. In response, Sir Wyn Williams' non-statutory inquiry was launched in September 2020. Following a Court of Appeal ruling that quashed 39 convictions linked to Horizon-related shortfalls on April 27th, the Minister announced plans to convert the inquiry into statutory status from June 1st, providing Sir Wyn with more powers and time to conduct an in-depth analysis. The new timeline for reporting is set for autumn 2022, instead of summer 2021, allowing for a thorough investigation into decision-making processes that led to the Horizon scandal. Sir Wyn will have the ability to compel organisations to provide documents and witnesses under oath if necessary. While costs implications are being considered by HM Treasury, the Government remains committed to uncovering what went wrong at the Post Office to prevent similar issues from arising in the future.
Seema Malhotra
Lab/Co-op
Feltham and Heston
Question
Can you confirm that Sir Wyn will have the power to compel witnesses to give testimony under oath and force organisations such as the Post Office to provide documents? Are there any limitations on these powers?
Minister reply
The Minister confirmed that Sir Wyn Williams will indeed have the power to summon witnesses to testify under oath and compel organisations, including the Post Office, to provide relevant documentation. There are no specific limitations mentioned regarding this power.
Seema Malhotra
Lab/Co-op
Feltham and Heston
Question
Why has compensation not been included in the terms of reference? Who was consulted on these revised terms?
Minister reply
The Minister did not provide a direct answer regarding why compensation is out of scope but indicated that further information would be forthcoming from Sir Wyn Williams as he considers his next steps. Consultation details were not specified.
Seema Malhotra
Lab/Co-op
Feltham and Heston
Question
Will ongoing contracts with Fujitsu, which provided the faulty Horizon software, be reviewed? What about the honours given to Paula Vennells during this period?
Minister reply
The Minister did not commit to reviewing existing contracts with Fujitsu but acknowledged concerns. Regarding honours awarded, he suggested that such decisions would depend on Sir Wyn's findings and any potential recommendations.
Seema Malhotra
Lab Co-op
Feltham and Heston
Question
The MP thanked the Minister for his statement but highlighted delays and shortcomings, questioning changes to previous stance on statutory inquiry. She called for an apology from the Government, oversight failure acknowledgment, compensation review, public consultation, and changes to prevent future scandals. Seema Malhotra questioned the scope of Sir Wyn's powers, Fujitsu’s accountability, and the £42 million contract with them despite their role in faulty software.
Minister reply
The Minister responded by acknowledging the Government's role and the need for lessons learned. He confirmed that the inquiry will have statutory footing under the Inquiries Act 2005, allowing Sir Wyn to compel evidence from individuals and organisations under oath. The Minister stated that compensation is a legal matter determined in court but encouraged sub-postmasters to raise issues of loss and difficulty during the inquiry.
Lucy Allan
Con
Telford
Question
The MP congratulated the Minister on his statement and thanked the Prime Minister for meeting affected sub-postmasters. She asked if compensation would be paid to all those affected, including those involved in the group litigation order, and highlighted that sub-postmasters should not face penalties for shining a light on Post Office conduct.
Minister reply
The Minister assured the MP that the Post Office is engaging in the compensation process, and he will ensure fair compensation for all affected individuals. He emphasised the importance of justice and fair treatment for those impacted by the scandal.
Marion Fellows
SNP
Glasgow North West
Question
Welcomes the statutory inquiry into the Horizon scandal but criticises the Government for briefing it to the press beforehand. Emphasises that the Post Office must agree to meet all costs due as a result of any compensation and stresses the need to hold those responsible accountable.
Minister reply
Agrees with the hon. Lady's points about securing justice while not jeopardising the future of the Post Office, stressing the importance of restoring confidence for postmasters and customers.
Andrew Bridgen
Con
North West Leicestershire
Question
Welcomes the announcement of a full public inquiry to finally draw a line under this tragic fiasco. Praises sub-postmasters as ordinary, honest people who have been caught up in incredible events not of their making.
Minister reply
Thanks hon. Friend for his work and acknowledges that postmasters are stalwarts of their communities who deserve justice and fair compensation.
Darren Jones
Lab
Bristol North West
Question
Welcomes the inquiry being on a statutory footing but questions why the terms of reference are still being decided by Ministers rather than the independent chair, Sir Wyn Williams.
Minister reply
Clarifies that changes to the terms of reference were done in collaboration with Sir Wyn and explains the reasons for these adjustments.
Duncan Baker
Con
Wycombe
Question
Welcomes the statutory footing but asks about Fujitsu's responsibility towards compensation for victims.
Minister reply
Acknowledges hon. Friend’s point about Fujitsu and suggests that Post Office Ltd will consider raising this issue in seeking redress.
Kevan Jones
Lab
North Durham
Question
Gives credit to the Minister for admitting to changing things when they go wrong, asks about full disclosure including ministerial submissions from the Post Office and highlights the Government's role as a shareholder.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the right hon. Gentleman’s long-standing campaigning on this issue and confirms that nothing is off the table within the inquiry.
Simon Fell
Con
Newton Abbot
Question
Welcomes the statutory inquiry and asks for a guarantee of fair compensation for those wronged.
Minister reply
Passes wishes to Isabella Wall, highlights importance of fair compensation alongside justice and acknowledges ongoing discussions.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Question
Welcomes recognition but criticises Post Office for defending the indefensible. Asks about Treasury support for funds to ensure fair representation in the inquiry.
Minister reply
Thanks hon. Gentleman's persistence and confirms discussions with Treasury regarding historical shortfall scheme.
Mark Pawsey
Con
Brackley and Northamptonshire
Question
Welcomes the action but asks about steps to ensure proper remuneration for postmasters performing valuable roles in local communities.
Minister reply
Agrees on importance of fair remuneration for postmasters, highlighting it as crucial for adding social value.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Question
Criticises the Post Office for defending a case it should not have been defending, leading to high legal fees. He calls on the Minister to give an undertaking to return money used in those legal fees.
Minister reply
States that Sir Wyn Williams' work will not be wasted and explains why the inquiry is being converted into a statutory one. Acknowledges understanding of Alistair Carmichael's concern about compensation for postmasters.
Question
Welcomes changes to the Horizon scandal inquiry and its importance in rebuilding trust between Post Office Ltd and sub-postmasters, crucial for retaining post offices on high streets.
Minister reply
Emphasises the importance of repairing relationships with postmasters, mentioning personal experience with a family member who was a postmaster. Acknowledges need to ensure that postmasters feel valued by both their communities and Post Office Ltd.
Question
Reiterates her previous question on full legal costs compensation for affected postmasters.
Minister reply
Explains that compensation packages are a matter between Post Office Ltd and wronged postmasters, with the company working to determine appropriate compensation.
Question
Asks if Government will do everything within its power to encourage affected postmasters to come forward and engage with the inquiry.
Minister reply
Reassures that everyone should feel confident in coming forward to tell their stories, emphasising the determination to provide answers.
Ian Byrne
Lab
Liverpool West Derby
Question
Asks if Government will address the limited remit of the inquiry regarding compensation and accountability of managers.
Minister reply
Clarifies that the inquiry's expanded remit includes looking at the accountability of managers, though an inquiry cannot determine liability on its own.
Mike Wood
Con
Kingswinford and South Staffordshire
Question
Asks how Government will ensure Post Office acts on recommendations from the statutory inquiry.
Minister reply
Explains that part of the inquiry is to measure whether Post Office has implemented necessary changes as a result of previous litigation.
Question
Proposes sub-postmasters be recognised as employed workers rather than independent contractors, citing the importance of their roles and the need for proper remuneration.
Minister reply
Acknowledges access to cash issues and mentions Post Office's plans to pilot new ways of access to cash in towns losing bank branches.
Question
Welcomes announcement of statutory inquiry into Post Office-Horizon IT scandal, asks about provision of technical advice and examination of National Federation of SubPostmasters.
Minister reply
Confirms Sir Wyn Williams will look at alarm bells raised by NFSP and get necessary technical support for the two-decade long software issue.
Maria Eagle
Lab
Liverpool Garston
Question
Asks why Government has declined to accept a Justice Committee recommendation on private prosecutors, requesting acceptance of said recommendation.
Minister reply
Explains that the use of private prosecutions is not within inquiry's scope but that Post Office has pledged not to use them since 2013 and will look into prosecution systems.
Question
Welcomes news that those wrongly accused will not face prosecution, asks if recommendations from the inquiry will ensure such events never happen again.
Minister reply
Confirms Government's commitment to righting wrongs and ensuring no recurrence, mentions ongoing judicial processes for previously prosecuted individuals.
Chris Elmore
Lab
Bridgend
Question
I welcome the Minister’s change of heart. It will provide much-needed reassurance, as he mentioned, to sub-postmasters, including my constituent, John Bowman. What will happen now for the sub-postmasters who have lost everything so that they have the financial confidence to get evidence to Sir Wyn’s inquiry? If they cannot afford to give that evidence, if they require legal support, what work is the Minister doing with the Treasury to ensure that those postmasters who have lost everything, including, in some cases, their homes, have the funding available to take part in this now statutory inquiry?
Minister reply
We absolutely want sub-postmasters to give evidence. There is obviously a cost implication in extending the inquiry and making it statutory. I am working through that process with my colleagues in the Treasury, and we want to make sure that everybody and anybody who has been affected can come forward to give that evidence with confidence, no matter what their financial situation is.
Question
My sympathy goes to everyone affected by this appalling scandal. Looking to the future, does the Minister agree that one of the best ways that we can support sub-postmasters and the post office network, which means so much to our constituents, is by using it to deliver more Government services? Up to now that been made difficult by EU procurement rules, which we can now change?
Minister reply
Those are exactly the things that each Government Department that has traditionally used the Post Office will continue to explore. None the less, the Post Office does not necessarily just need to be limited to Government services. There are plenty more things that it can do to modernise and ensure that it better reflects customer demand.
Liz Twist
Lab
Blaydon and Consett
Question
I welcome the move to a statutory inquiry, but also note the extension of the timescale for the inquiry; it has been extended, I think, by some nine months or so. John and Pat Moir have spent more than a decade fighting this case and fighting to clear their name. Clearly they welcome this inquiry, but what assurances can they have that it will work to the timescales, so that they and others can see the outcome before more time passes?
Minister reply
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to ask that question. One of the key reasons why I originally set it up as a non-statutory inquiry was to ensure that we were not overly burdened with bureaucracy and the need to “lawyer up”, which tends to extend statutory inquiries to three years and beyond. I have said to Sir Wyn that I do want an interim report to the original timescale, so that we can show the public progress, but we are going to have an extra year to ensure that extra evidence is considered.
Bury South
Question
The importance of the Post Office has increased in every community across this country, especially as high street banks continue to close. Does my hon. Friend agree that postmasters truly are the backbone of the Post Office and that we need to strengthen that relationship? Does he therefore share my concern about the way in which many have been treated by the Post Office through this scandal?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is what is so galling for the postmasters who had those roles in the past. They were the stalwarts and the backbone of their community; the stigma of being accused of false accounting or fraud must have been so unbearable.
Question
I am sure that the whole House will join me in welcoming the fantastic news that the sub-postmasters wrongly accused across the UK will no longer face prosecution. It is incredibly important that full and timely justice is served. Will my hon. Friend therefore commit to holding the Post Office’s feet to the fire, ensuring that it studies carefully whatever recommendations may arise from the inquiry to ensure that this can never ever happen again?
Minister reply
This is the end of the beginning. Clearly, there is a long way to go to ensure that we get the answers, but in holding the Post Office’s feet to the fire, I do not want to add stigma to the Post Office moving forward; for the reasons that we have heard today, post offices are right at the heart of all our communities.
Question
I do welcome the statement, but it has taken far too long for it to happen. My constituent was held responsible for missing funds, charged, convicted and sentenced to 13 months in prison. It cost her not only her home, which she had to sell to meet these debts, but her marriage. She is left penniless and has to move out of the area, and is understandably concerned that nearly 40% of the compensation awarded is just swallowed up by legal costs. What does appropriate compensation look like for people like her?
Minister reply
I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s constituent will feel confident in coming forward and outlining her case and those financial losses, exactly as he has described, so that Sir Wyn can take a holistic view. On compensation, as I say, the Post Office now needs to ensure that it works with the postmasters and addresses issues such as Fujitsu.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Question
My hon. Friend will be well aware that the overwhelming majority of men and women who run our post offices are small business owners who work extremely long hours and have to deal with extremely complex and different sets not only of accounts but of transactions. Given the circumstances that have arisen under the Horizon scandal, what actions will he take to ensure that the position is rebalanced between those small business owners and the vast monolith of the Post Office?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That process is already taking place under the leadership of Nick Read, who comes from an independent supermarket background, where he managed to grow a culture very similar to the relationship that he describes wanting to see in the Post Office.
Shadow Comment
Seema Malhotra
Shadow Comment
Labour welcomes the conversion of the inquiry into statutory status but believes it does not go far enough. Seema Malhotra highlighted that there have been 900 false prosecutions in total, causing immense harm to individuals and families. She praised campaigners for their efforts and criticised the government's previous reluctance to act despite evidence of issues since at least 2013. Malhotra questioned the Minister on why he changed his stance regarding a statutory inquiry, whether there would be an apology from the Government for failures in oversight, how compensation will factor into the new terms of reference, and if ongoing contracts with Fujitsu would be reviewed considering their role in providing faulty software.
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