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Estimates Day
05 July 2022
Lead MP
Stephen Timms
Debate Type
General Debate
Tags
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Other Contributors: 34
At a Glance
Stephen Timms raised concerns about estimates day in the House of Commons. Other MPs contributed to the debate.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Lead Contributor
Opened the debate
Welcomes measures announced by Chancellor, including £37 billion package, but raises concerns about distributional impact and the need for proper benefit uprating systems. Emphasises the importance of reviewing the benefit cap in light of inflation expectations.
Stephen Timms
Lab
East Ham
Welcomes measures announced by Chancellor, including £37 billion package, but raises concerns about distributional impact and the need for proper benefit uprating systems. Emphasises the importance of reviewing the benefit cap in light of inflation expectations.
Chris Stephens
SNP
Glasgow South West
Expressed concerns over the five-week wait and deductions from social security payments, highlighted issues with the bereavement support benefits for cohabiting couples, advocated for a non-repayable grant to prevent people from getting into debt, raised concerns about departmental office closures impacting local economies, and called for more resources to ensure pensioners receive their entitlements.
Kirsty Blackman
SNP
Aberdeen North
Asked Chris Stephens if he shared her concern about the lack of reassurance regarding top-up payments announced by the Chancellor, suggesting that the Department for Work and Pensions might try to claw back such money given in error.
Debbie Abrahams
Lab
Oldham East and Saddleworth
The hon. Member raises concerns about the cuts to social security spending, particularly for working-age people, highlighting a reduction of up to 17% compared with 2010 levels. She cites research from the Resolution Foundation indicating that social security support is the least generous in the OECD and points out that the amount available to someone who is out of work is barely above destitution levels. The hon. Member also notes the impact on disabled people, citing a loss of income equivalent to over £6,500 annually for households with at least one disabled adult and child, and almost £10,000 for disabled lone parents with a disabled child. She criticises the inadequacy of social security support during the pandemic and calls for principles that ensure all social security support is uplifted to account for inflation.
Wendy Chamberlain
Lib Dem
North East Fife
The Government have pushed people into crisis through policies such as refusing to uplift legacy benefits alongside universal credit during the pandemic. The removal of the £20 a week universal credit uplift, which was introduced to reinforce the safety net, has taken away crucial support from those already struggling. The decision reveals that the government thinks poverty payments are acceptable for long-term benefit claimants. Unpaid carers receive only £69.70 per week through Carer's Allowance and face significant barriers to work due to an earnings cap of £132, which is below minimum wage levels. The government needs to update on a report about the impact of Carer’s Allowance on people’s ability to work and address injustices like those faced by intelligence workers who were discharged from service due to pregnancy discrimination.
Kirsty Blackman
SNP
Aberdeen North
Critiques the DWP's estimates process, highlighting its inability to table meaningful amendments for £240 billion of spending. Emphasises the Department's failure in maximising employment and improving people’s quality of life due to flawed computer systems and inadequate staffing levels. Advocates for a social security system that ensures everyone is caught by the safety net instead of making it difficult for people to access benefits. Discusses the inadequacy of benefit uprating compared to inflation, calling for adequate backdating of payments. Mentions the Scottish social security system as an example of positive achievements and contrasts it with the failures of the DWP's approach.
Karen Buck
Lab
Westminster North
The debate highlights the ongoing cost of living crisis that has been exacerbated over the past 12 years, leading to an increase in poverty rates among lone parents and children. The emergency cost of living payments are welcome but insufficient given the long-term erosion of benefits. Working-age benefits were frozen from 2016 to 2020, resulting in a real-terms reduction in their value. Additionally, pensioners face their biggest real-terms cut in about half a century with 2 million in poverty. The limitations of one-off payments include lack of consideration for family size and changes in circumstances throughout the year.
David Rutley
Con
Macclesfield
The Government have acted decisively to protect lives and livelihoods during the pandemic, providing a safety net for millions through universal credit. They provided support worth £407 billion between 2020 and 2022, constituting the biggest fiscal intervention since World War II. The current cost of living pressures are driven by global shocks, including Russia's invasion of Ukraine, leading to rising energy costs. The Government is taking targeted measures to help lowest-income households through inflationary pressures. Efforts include encouraging people into work with 1.3 million job vacancies and a record number of people moving into employment thanks to the Way to Work campaign. Universal credit taper rates were cut from 63% to 55%, and work allowances have increased by £500 annually. National insurance thresholds are being lowered, benefiting nearly 30 million workers up to £330 per year. Benefits and pensions will be reviewed annually based on the consumer prices index increase in the previous September.
Debbie Abrahams
Lab
Oldham East and Saddleworth
Challenges the Minister about the inadequacy of the system before the pandemic and cost of living crisis. Questions if targeted support could have prevented national inflationary pressures based on the Institute for Fiscal Studies' recent observation.
Stephen Timms
Lab
East Ham
Thanks the Minister for commitment to uprating in line with inflation but questions whether the benefit cap will be reviewed between now and next April given current inflationary environment.
Wendy Chamberlain
Lib Dem
North East Fife
Asks if the review of uprating will examine energy price gap implications, which is having a critical impact on people's incomes.
Chris Stephens
SNP
Glasgow South West
Acknowledges the Minister’s comments and asks whether the Department has considered making starter payments within two weeks of claim as a solution to address the five-week wait for universal credit.
Stephen Timms
Lab
East Ham
The MP thanked everyone who contributed to the debate, especially Chris Stephens for his work on bereavement benefits. He also highlighted Debbie Abrahams' advocacy for vulnerable claimants of disability benefits and Wendy Chamberlain's focus on supporting carers. Timms emphasised the need to raise the benefit cap due to rising inflation.
The Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee opened the debate, emphasising the importance of debating Welsh matters more frequently. He discussed the work done by the committee and their report on benefits in Wales, as well as the measures taken by the UK Government to support families during the cost-of-living crisis.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Saville-Roberts intervened, suggesting that devolving the Crown Estate to Wales could enable Wales to grow its own economy and supply chains. She also mentioned the importance of grid improvements for economic development.
Chris Bryant
Lab
Rhondda and Ogmore
Bryant intervened, expressing concern about the competitive nature of levelling-up funds and suggested that enabling more people to start their own businesses would be a better approach. He also supported the idea of grid improvements.
Carmarthen East and Dinefwr
Welsh estimates debate on regional economic policy. Critiques Westminster's approach, suggesting it compares to Germany post-reunification but falls short in investment and commitment. Emphasises need for decades-long commitment with substantial funding; criticises current allocations as inadequate compared to German spending post-1990 reunification. Proposes redistribution through fiscal transfers rather than welfare payments, advocating infrastructure investments in low-productivity areas. Discusses constitutional debate in Wales within an economic context, supporting independence based on economic arguments. Advocates for full fiscal powers over income tax, corporation tax and VAT for Welsh Government to tackle economic issues effectively post-Brexit. Highlights economic instability due to Brexit and inflationary spiral, with warnings about sterling's collapse. Recommends rejoining the EU single market and customs union to boost exports and investment. Expresses concerns over capital projects associated with city deals, requesting clarity on government plans to mitigate risks. Points out that day-to-day funding for Wales is below 2010 levels in real terms.
Stephen Kinnock
Lab
Aberafan Maesteg
Intervened questioning the comparison with Germany, suggesting a radical devolution model within a federal state structure as crucial to success. Argued that separation of German Länder would likely result in disaster.
Robin Millar
Con
Aberconwy
Mr Millar argued that Wales's economic situation is better within the UK and highlighted the importance of tourism in his constituency. He expressed concern about the limited opportunities for young people and the low income output compared to other parts of the UK, despite having significant entrepreneurial activity. He criticised the Welsh Labour Government's approach to Shared Prosperity Fund funding and advocated for an asset-based model rather than a deficit model. He opposed a proposed tourism tax as ineffective in addressing issues related to inappropriate visitor behaviour.
Arfon
Mr Williams questioned the effectiveness of UK efforts to promote Wales and suggested that these efforts have been 'hopeless'.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Ms Saville-Roberts argued for devolution to provide Wales with the tools necessary to make a difference, rather than just managing poverty. She supported the idea of a tourism tax as a means to improve skills and job quality in communities dependent on tourism.
Stephen Crabb
Con
Beaumaris
Mr Crabb responded by suggesting that the Welsh Government has not fully utilised existing tools, using the example of cutting the top rate of income tax to attract high-value tech entrepreneurs and their families.
Ben Lake
PC
Ceredigion Preseli
Mr Lake questioned Mr Millar about VAT rates for hospitality businesses, suggesting consistency with pre-pandemic levels rather than recent increases.
Beth Winter
Lab
Cynon Valley
Ms Winter congratulates the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire on securing the debate and outlines her disagreement with the views expressed by Conservative Members. She expresses pride in Wales, highlighting progressive policies pursued by the Welsh Government, such as extending free school meals to all primary children, a universal basic income pilot, and cost of living support packages. Ms Winter notes significant funding cuts by the UK Government, amounting to over £2 billion compared to the previous year's main estimate for funding in Wales, indicating a budget worth £600 million less due to mismanaged inflation. She criticises the UK Government's ideological austerity agenda and their actions such as levelling-up fund and community funds associated with post-Brexit agenda which bypass the democratically elected Welsh Government. The Finance Minister of the Welsh Government has condemned ‘clear gaps in funding’ in the spending review, calling it a threadbare one that exposed an out-of-touch Chancellor.
Ms Winter also highlights how earnings and low-income rates in Wales are worse than in the rest of the UK, citing research conducted by the Bevan Foundation on median working residents' earnings being below both Welsh and UK averages. The research reveals shocking experiences with over 30% respondents skipping meals to keep costs down, more significantly for benefit claimants.
She calls for key immediate actions such as listening to Wales TUC regarding pay demands in public sector, reintroducing the £20 universal credit uplift, increasing benefits based on near-term inflation forecasts, allocating adequate funding from the shared prosperity fund through the Welsh Government. Long term measures discussed include equalising role of Welsh Government over Crown Estate with Scotland and a UK-wide debate on devolving corporation tax and capital gains tax as recommended by Holtham commission.
Simon Baynes
Con
Clwyd South
The hon. Member for Clwyd South argues that Wales is currently supported financially by the UK and highlights the fiscal deficit of £25.91 billion at the financial year end in March 2021, which amounts to about £8,200 per person compared with the UK average of about £4,700 per person. He criticises Labour council tax bills under Labour for soaring by 54%, or 17% in real terms since 2010. Simon Baynes also questions why the Welsh Government does not use its income tax powers to raise more money and expresses concern over the suspension of new road building projects by the Labour-Plaid coalition.
Ben Lake
PC
Ceredigion Preseli
Congratulates the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire and acknowledges the structural long-term problems facing Wales and its economy, focusing on demographic issues in rural areas like Ceredigion; discusses impact of cost of living crisis with reference to recent census results showing a 5.8% fall in population; highlights government support measures worth £37 billion including energy bill discounts for households, but notes that net Government support stands at about £14 billion when accounting for tax increases; raises concerns over off-grid properties and their exposure to significant price increases; mentions the need for further government intervention to support small businesses facing energy and fuel price hikes; emphasises social impact of current crisis on community groups and essential services in rural areas.
Stephen Kinnock
Lab
Aberavon Maesteg
The people of Wales need answers from the Westminster Government about the cost of living crisis. The Conservative Government's response has been deeply disappointing, out of touch and out of ideas. Labour proposes to cancel national insurance contributions rise, cut VAT on home energy bills, ease red tape, support manufacturing through policies like a £3 billion green steel fund, and provide additional social welfare measures such as doubling the winter fuel support payment to £200 for almost 150,000 people in Wales. Welsh Labour's household support fund has provided £51 million of targeted aid. Free prescriptions continue in Wales, whereas they cost £9.35 an item in England. The council tax rebate is less beneficial for households in England compared to those in Wales. Wales also benefits from the young person’s guarantee and ReAct Plus employment programmes.
Jessica Morden
Lab
Newport East
The Welsh Government's budget over the next three years is likely to be worth at least £600 million less in real terms due to higher than expected inflation. The UK Government has failed to honour their pledge to replace and 'at a minimum match the size of' EU structural and investment funds, leading to Wales losing more than £1 billion of vital EU funding. Despite these challenges, the Welsh Government are attempting to address the cost of living crisis through measures such as expanding council tax reduction schemes and providing free school meals during holidays. In contrast, the UK Government is out of touch and has not brought in an emergency budget or refused to raise taxes. The Welsh Affairs Committee has called for an urgent review of the universal credit system, highlighting inadequate benefit levels and calling for a re-evaluation of policies such as the five-week wait, benefit cap, two-child limit, bedroom tax, shared accommodation rate, local housing allowance freeze, and lower rate of universal credit for under-25s. Additionally, there are concerns over the loss of EU funding, the operation of the levelling-up fund in Wales, rail enhancement funding disparities, and police funding issues that disproportionately affect Welsh forces.
Chris Matheson
Lab
Bridgend
Matheson emphasised the importance of Chester's railway network in supporting economic growth in north Wales. He highlighted the need for increased signalling and platform capacity at Chester station to allow through services from Manchester, Liverpool, and north Wales. He also called for electrification of the line from Crewe to Chester and improvement in direct train services from London Euston to Chester and north Wales. Matheson supported Flintshire County Council’s bid for the Borderlands line as it would benefit his constituency, Deeside industrial area, and Wrexham.
Richard Thomson
Lab
Central Ayrshire
Welsh Government's ambitious policy programme aims to reinforce societal foundations, build a modern and socially just nation. The UK government faces criticism for its dysfunction compared to the coalition in Scotland. He highlighted Wales' highest poverty rate among the four nations at the beginning of 2022, with nearly one in four people living in poverty and over 14% of households in fuel poverty prior to price cap increases. He emphasised the need for dynamic initiatives to overcome disadvantages resulting from Brexit and R&D funding disparities.
Jo Stevens
Lab
Cardiff East
The Welsh Government's budget is likely worth at least £600 million less due to inflation, leading to a deterioration in spending power. The UK government has broken promises regarding post-EU membership replacement funding for Wales, with the country set to lose more than £1 billion of vital funding through the shared prosperity fund and other cuts.
Simon Hart
Con
Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire
Praised the work of his colleague Stephen Crabb on the Welsh Affairs Committee. He discussed inflationary pressures being a global issue rather than specific to Wales or the UK. He criticised Labour's inconsistent claims about underfunding, highlighting disagreements over separatism versus Unionism with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). He also addressed tourism, job creation, shared prosperity fund allocation, rural fuel relief scheme, and the challenges of tax rises proposed by the Labour Party.
Stephen Crabb
Con
Preseli Pembrokeshire
Summarized the debate, emphasising that while there were disagreements, all MPs share a love for Wales. He highlighted the need to fight harder for resources in Wales and acknowledged the hard work of the Clerks of the Welsh Affairs Committee.
Made a brief comment on the use of 'finally' and 'very finally' by previous speakers before deferring the question until the next day.
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