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Ukraine: UK and NATO Military Commitment
20 June 2022
Lead MP
Leo Docherty
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
UkraineDefence
Other Contributors: 24
At a Glance
Leo Docherty raised concerns about ukraine: uk and nato military commitment in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Russia’s assault on Ukraine is an unprovoked attack threatening global security. The UK supports Ukraine with military aid, increasing the budget to £1.3 billion. This includes over 6,900 anti-tank missiles, five air defence systems, 120 armoured fighting vehicles, and non-lethal aid such as helmets and body armour kits. The UK also provides advanced rocket systems and offers training for up to 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers every three months. Additionally, the UK enhances NATO’s deterrence with increased air patrols and deployments in Cyprus and Bulgaria. The PM will meet NATO leaders at the Madrid summit to agree on long-term improvements to NATO's defence posture.
Tobias Ellwood
Con
Bournemouth East
Question
Thanks the Speaker for the flag-raising ceremony, praises PM's visit to Ukraine and UK support but asks why Russia is not losing and Ukraine is not winning. Questions NATO’s ability to secure ports like Odesa and suggests Britain should lead a coalition offering Ukraine more support. Criticises unsustainable tempo of duties and defence cuts, urging for a 3% defence budget.
Minister reply
The Minister disagrees with the statement that Russia is not losing in Ukraine, citing strategic losses from invasion onwards. He defends NATO's balance between providing reassurance and avoiding direct conflict. Emphasises UK’s role as part of a strong alliance, acknowledges significant threat posed by Russia since 2021, and highlights £24-billion uplift for modernised military technology under the Government.
John Healey
Lab
Rawmarsh and Conisbrough
Question
Today marks day 117 since Russia began its brutal and illegal invasion of Ukraine. It is now a grim, grinding war of attrition. NATO’s Secretary-General warned last week that the alliance “must prepare for the fact that it could take years.” Everything that can be done must be done to help maintain the Ukrainian military’s morale, weaponry and personnel. The Government will continue to have Labour’s full support in the military assistance they provide to Ukraine. In April, when responding to the Defence Secretary's statement in this House, I urged the Government to move to supply “the new NATO weapons that Ukraine will need for Putin’s next offensive”. In these last two months, what NATO-standard stock has been supplied from the UK to Ukraine, and how many new contracts for missiles or ammunition production have the MOD now managed to sign and start? On Friday, as the Minister said, the Prime Minister offered to train 10,000 new Ukrainian soldiers every three months. This is exactly what is needed. Did President Zelensky accept Britain’s offer? Will these Ukrainian recruits be trained in Britain? Which other NATO nations will be involved in such training?
Minister reply
I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's questions and, as ever, we are grateful for the support of the Opposition for our Ukraine defence policy. To go straight to the questions, new contracts are under discussion. The Minister for Defence Procurement and the Prime Minister had a meeting this morning, which was the latest in a series of discussions about escalating the supply of NATO-standard equipment, which is very important. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about training, and that was a very significant result of the Prime Minister’s visit last week. I think the Defence Secretary also had some discussions. Not being privy to those discussions, it is not appropriate for me to speculate about their content at the Dispatch Box. However, I can say that the reference point for the UK's contribution will be the remarkably successful Operation Orbital, which has trained some 25,000 Ukrainian soldiers since 2014. We have a long and deep heritage of working very closely and successfully with our Ukrainian allies, and I think that will be a very good basis on which to conduct future training support. As to which NATO allies may be involved, I cannot confirm that, but I would say that NATO, by disposition, tends to work in alliance, so I suspect other nations to be involved.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
As the expenditure on all the equipment that we have rightly been supplying is operational, will the Minister confirm that it is coming from the Treasury reserve and not from the normal annual defence budget? I gently remind him and the House that, in the first half of the 1980s, we were spending not 2.3% or even 3% of GDP on defence; we were spending between 4.7% and 5.1% of GDP on defence.
Minister reply
I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s question. The answer is yes. I note, with particular regard to the long-standing nature of his interest in the issue, his comments about overall defence spending.
Dave Doogan
SNP
Angus and Perthshire Glens
Question
Given the evolution of the war in Ukraine, what lessons has the Ministry of Defence learned about the enduring need for infantry to take, hold and/or defend territory? Will those lessons be input to a refresh of MOD thinking and operational strategy that drove the much-derided 10,000 cut in Army numbers in the integrated review? Those infantry will require to be supported by heavy armour and armoured fighting vehicles, but, given that the UK’s decade-old solution to the latter—Ajax—is an unfathomably challenged £5.5 billion project that is surely now on the brink of being cancelled, how has the war in Ukraine focused the Department’s attention in that regard? I recently returned from Türkiye, where the Turkish Defence Minister advised NATO parliamentarians on the role that his country is playing in seeking to facilitate safe passage of merchant vessels into and out of Ukraine with grain. What dynamic is the UK playing in that space? Does the Minister agree with the Turkish Minister’s assessment that it is the Ukrainians who—understandably —need persuading of the merits of demining those shipping lanes and ensuring that they do not then fall prey to Russian naval forces? Finally, if agreement is reached on demining, what role will the world-leading mine countermeasure professionals in the Royal Navy, many of whom are based in Scotland, play in demining those approaches to Ukraine?
Minister reply
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s questions. The lessons are manifold. One in particular is the vulnerability of armour without significant covering fire and deep fires, and what happens when a combined arms manoeuvre falls apart, particularly due to a complete failure of the moral component. He is attempting to spin that into a lesson purely about numbers of infantry. I draw his attention to the necessity of infantry having protection, mobility and its own fire to protect itself. Anyone of my generation of people in the military will remember deploying unprotected vehicles without a significant ability to manoeuvre and bring on deep fires, especially in a remote way. Those capabilities—the ability for our infantry to be much better protected, more mobile and more lethal—are exactly what we are delivering with the integrated review and the defence Command Paper, and that is a job of work worth doing. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Ajax. The House will be interested to know that we are looking at it with urgent focus, and I am sure that the Minister for Defence Procurement will update the House in due course. The hon. Gentleman made an interesting point about Turkey and the critical, strategic import of the Black sea with regard to grain exports out of Ukraine, with some 50% being stuck there. I will not speculate about the role of the magnificent Royal Navy or anyone else in the British military, but undoubtedly that will be on the agenda at the NATO summit in Madrid next week.
Question
The UK’s military support for Ukraine has been world-leading, but it is legitimate for us to ask whether we are restocking adequately and quickly enough here in the UK. Will my hon. Friend update us on whether the promised military supplies coming from other European countries have materialised in Ukraine? It is essential that our rhetoric in NATO is matched with actions if we are to remain credible, as both what we say and what we do will be closely monitored in Moscow.
Minister reply
I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s question. We are happily operating a new-for-old policy with regard to our own supplies. Further, on the rest of the alliance, there is a sense of great urgency. We are seeking to ensure that the multiple launch rocket system is delivered in good order as soon as possible, and the contribution of the US to that will also be critical. I think that the collective sense of urgency will increase as we come to the NATO summit in Madrid next week.
Question
I agree wholeheartedly with the Chair of the Defence Committee and the shadow Defence Secretary. Unless we are prepared to make a real investment in our Army and the weapons that are required, we cannot supply them to Ukraine. We are not supplying the long-term equipment required in order to attack the Russians coming in; what we are doing is holding back on supporting the Army, which is not good enough. When will we start to look at first of all supporting Poland with NATO to supply the big aircraft that are needed, and how can we move forward on that?
Minister reply
I would disagree entirely with that. The tactical weapon that we have supplied in the form of the NLAW has had a remarkable strategic output. The hon. Gentleman speculates about MiGs and so on, but I do not think that strictly relevant. What is important is the multiple launch rocket system, and it is also important that we respond to Ukraine demand and pay attention to the demand signal. We must follow what the Ukrainians themselves want.
Question
I was proud to hear President Zelensky describe our support as strong and resolute, and Great Britain as being Ukraine’s best friend. That is great stuff. Does the Minister agree that three risks are associated with what is currently happening in Ukraine? The first is mission creep, which, as always, we must beware of; the second could be some kind of error, in which an American or Russian plane is shot down by mistake, possibly leading to some form of escalation; and the third would be a false-flag operation by the Russians, somehow using that as an excuse to try to drag NATO into the war. Does my hon. Friend agree that we must at all costs avoid NATO’s direct involvement in the war? Support is great; war fighting is not.
Minister reply
I do, and that is a cogent analysis of the attendant risks to this: mission creep, some sort of error, and a false-flag operation. That is why throughout this we have based our response in a bilateral manner. We are clearly paying attention to what other NATO allies are doing, but it is a bilateral provision, which is right and proper.
Maria Eagle
Lab
Liverpool Garston
Question
Given that, as has already been mentioned, the new head of the Army said that the UK must “forge an Army capable of fighting alongside our allies and defeating Russia in battle”, I found the Minister’s response to the Urgent Question a little complacent. Is he absolutely sure that that can be done, while continuing with the planned cuts of 10,000 to the Army? Many of us are not sure about that.
Minister reply
I am confident. A significant increase in money is delivering new capabilities to make our people more lethal, more agile, and more mobile.
Question
I congratulate the Government on the significant matériel now being provided to Ukraine, but what is their current assessment about the possibility of Russia using tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine? Will the Minister confirm that plans are in place with our allies to deal with that in the horrific event of their use?
Minister reply
Of course we consider all scenarios in the Department. We still regard that as a very unlikely possibility, but the Ministry of Defence, like everyone else in defence, is always ready.
Jamie Stone
Lib Dem
Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross
Question
We have all seen the appalling atrocities uncovered in Bucha and Irpin, and there is no doubt that they were perpetrated by Russian forces. Sixty people have also been killed in a school in Luhansk, following Russian shelling. Is it time for the Russian military units, including mercenary groups such as the Wagner Group, with its sinister death squads, to be proscribed as terrorist organisations?
Minister reply
The hon. Member makes a good point, and I agree with the sentiment. We sincerely hope—this is already happening—that these criminals, and they appear to be criminals in many cases, especially in regard to the appalling atrocities being committed and the apparent murder of civilians in Bucha and elsewhere, will be brought before the International Criminal Court.
Andrew Murrison
Con
South West Wiltshire
Question
What does my hon. Friend make of Putin’s increasingly aggressive tone towards Lithuania in relation to the Kaliningrad enclave? Does he agree that one way to approach it would be to accelerate and expedite the accession of Sweden and Finland to NATO? Will he do everything in his power to shore up our NATO ally to make sure that Putin’s aggression is met with an appropriate response that will make sure he does nothing against that country, or the consequences will be very severe indeed?
Minister reply
I am grateful for that question, which shows that Putin is losing: his bluster is illustrative of his massive loss of confidence. He thought he was going to get less NATO because of this outrageous invasion, and he is getting more NATO.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham
Question
This argument of more for less that we are hearing from the Government is what we have heard from them in virtually every area of public expenditure, whether it be the health service, social care or local government services, or the cutting of 21,000 police officers that we were told would not result in a rise in crime, but did. Is the Minister aware that the 10,000 planned cut in troops will result in the smallest Army we have had since 1714? Should the Government not review that in the light of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
Minister reply
It is not more for less; it is doing more with more, because we have a £24 billion uplift. Defence expenditure is going up, and I hope the hon. Member appreciates that.
Robert Jenrick
Con
Newark
Question
The quantity of weaponry required by Ukraine vastly exceeds the amount pledged by NATO allies, and the amount pledged significantly exceeds the amount that has actually been delivered. To take the example that the Minister raised on MLRS, 300 of those systems are estimated to be required and 50 have been pledged, and the United Kingdom has delivered just three. What is our plan and that of our allies—particularly European ones, who simply do not have the stocks of these weapons—to boost production as quickly as possible?
Minister reply
My right hon. Friend should rest assured that every sinew is being strained. I think some of the time has been taken up in the necessary provisions—for example, the operatives need to be trained on target acquisition—so that the proper use of these kind of munitions can be made.
Gavin Robinson
DUP
Belfast East
Question
The Minister will be aware that people in my constituency hold great admiration for Thales, for the provision of next generation light anti-tank weapons and Starstreak and for the ability for Ukrainians to have the power to defend themselves. Further to that question, it is worthy of further examination. We are providing many platforms to Ukraine where reproduction simply is not possible and where a switch cannot be flicked immediately. Some of these systems have been decommissioned and are not in active production, so how does the Minister expect the House to have confidence in the assertion that what we give we will get back?
Minister reply
What we are doing is ensuring that commercial production is radically accelerated. The hon. Gentleman will know how complex and multifaceted that is. I am not pretending it is easy, but the full effort of the Department and our allies is resolutely focused on this issue.
Question
I thank my hon. Friend for his statement and I praise the additional support we are offering Ukraine. As he said, NATO is the bedrock of our collective security and we have two new nations seeking to become members. I welcome the decisions of the Governments of Sweden and Finland to join, which are completely understandable now we have seen what Putin is capable of. Will my hon. Friend the Minister update the House on what support we will be giving Finland and Sweden as they seek to join the alliance?
Minister reply
That is a very good question. Those discussions are under way. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary visited both countries very recently to initiate those discussions.
Andrew Gwynne
Ind
Gorton
Question
As we rightly focus on what is happening in Ukraine, Moldova rightly fears Russian advances along the southern coast of Ukraine, with a possible view to Russia annexing Transnistria in the same way as it annexed Crimea. Given that, what discussions is the Minister having with both Moldovan counterparts and NATO allies to ensure we are ready for that eventuality? How, given that we are likely to be in this for a very, very long time, is he building that coalition so it is stable going forward and we do not do what I suspect Putin wants us to do in the west—to blink, get bored and wander off?
Minister reply
We will not allow that to happen. We are increasing our enhanced forward presence, which is very significant. We will be committing a company group into Bulgaria, in addition to our long-standing commitment to Estonia.
Question
Is it not the truth that the Government have been caught out? Systematically, over 10 years, they have been running down our defence capacity. Ten years ago, I said there was a real danger in reducing our overall strength to fewer than 100,000 men and women. The fact of the matter is that we have to send a message to President Putin that we will invest in our defence and increase the number of people in our defence forces, and that we will, in future, take the defence of this country seriously.
Minister reply
We are doing that. We are investing in our defence. The overall defence budget has increased radically. It is £24 billion more than it was in 2019.
Marie Rimmer
Lab
St Helens South and Whiston
Question
The British public are committed to supporting Ukraine’s fight for freedom. As this conflict may be prolonged, will the Minister commit to ensuring that the public remains thoroughly informed about their support's importance?
Minister reply
The hon. Lady makes a good point. This is becoming a war of attrition, and Putin’s actions in Donbas are not strategic victories but undermining for Russia. The Russian people, influenced by poor leadership, may be the key to changing direction.
Nia Griffith
Lab
Llanelli
Question
Since 2010, Conservative Governments have cut our Army significantly. With recent statements from military leaders indicating overstretch, will the Minister reconsider future force numbers?
Minister reply
We are considering requirements and embracing technology to enhance capability. The Chief of the General Staff supports this approach, focusing on effectiveness rather than simplistic numerical measures.
Wayne David
Lab
Not specified
Question
Turkey may delay Sweden and Finland’s NATO applications for up to a year if its demands are not met. Is such a response from Turkey in this context totally unacceptable?
Minister reply
We acknowledge Turkey's concerns, which are being addressed by the Foreign Secretary and others. We expect these issues to be resolved in Madrid next week.
Dan Jarvis
Lab
Barnsley North
Question
Given the incoming Chief of the General Staff’s remarks on forging an army capable of fighting alongside allies against Russia, is there a need for additional Treasury resources to ensure our armed forces are prepared and have the necessary capabilities?
Minister reply
We keep these matters under review. With current funding, we plan to deliver significant new capability. I will not speculate further.
Margaret Ferrier
Ind
Not specified
Question
Russia has reportedly become China’s biggest oil supplier due to sanctions against Russia over the conflict in Ukraine. What level of risk does this pose for strengthening ties and co-dependency between China and Russia?
Minister reply
In the immediate term, China benefits from cheaper energy but will note Europe and US support for sovereign nations' integrity as a lesson.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
As Ukraine’s fight against Russia continues, with Russia being larger and better resourced, is it now time to do much more with NATO allies, particularly concerning Starstreak missiles?
Minister reply
We are indeed doing more, focusing on capacity building for Ukraine through training discussions. This war of attrition also significantly weakens Russian capabilities.
Shadow Comment
Tobias Ellwood
Shadow Comment
The UK has been an exemplar in supporting Ukraine compared with many of its NATO allies, but Russia is not losing and Ukraine is not winning. The shadow minister asks the Minister to recognise the threat of a wider conflict between the west and growing authoritarianism, suggesting Britain should lead a coalition offering Ukraine greater support. He criticises the unsustainable tempo of these duties, noting that defence cuts must be reversed. Ellwood also argues for increasing the defence budget from 2.2% to 3%.
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