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National Security
01 November 2022
Lead MP
Thomas Tugendhat
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
UkraineTaxation
Other Contributors: 27
At a Glance
Thomas Tugendhat raised concerns about national security in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister for Security, Thomas Tugendhat, made a statement on national security in the face of global competition and threats from foreign states. He highlighted Russia's illegal war in Ukraine as an example of the growing threat to our security and emphasised that this is not just a clash of armour but a clash of ideas. The Minister discussed the importance of economic security and sovereignty, acknowledging the level playing field created by advanced technologies developed by rivals. He announced the establishment of a taskforce under his leadership to defend democratic integrity against state-based threats, working with Parliament, Departments, security agencies, devolved Administrations, and the private sector. The taskforce aims to protect freedoms and institutions, including addressing physical threats to Members of Parliament. The National Security Bill will provide necessary legal powers for defending against hostile states, marking a significant piece of legislation in a century.
Nigel Huddleston
Con
Mid Worcestershire
Question
How will this taskforce be staffed, and where will it sit within Government?
Minister reply
The taskforce will be inter-agency and cross-departmental. We are exploring its precise structure to ensure it can deliver on the wide-ranging issues involved.
Tonia Antoniazzi
Lab
Slough
Question
Does the Minister accept that while this taskforce may be an effective way of working, unless there is a change in Government attitudes towards security and information sharing, it will not solve anything?
Minister reply
The taskforce will tackle the issues raised. We are committed to changing culture within the House.
Kevin Barron
Lab
Rother Valley
Question
Will the taskforce focus on the safety and security of Members of Parliament, including those from all parties? Will it also consider how we protect our constituents’ personal data and ensure that Members are aware of how to keep their devices safe?
Minister reply
The taskforce will look at physical threats to parliamentarians across all political parties. It will examine cyber-security concerns and provide guidance on managing online profiles and protecting personal data.
Pauline Latham
Con
Mid Derbyshire
Question
Will the Minister ensure that we get more women into these roles? I know from my work at the Foreign Office that there are some brilliant women, but they sometimes do not get a chance to be recognised. Will he give them an opportunity?
Minister reply
The taskforce will welcome expertise and perspectives from all backgrounds and genders.
Rachael Maskell
Lab
York Central
Question
In the past, there have been significant threats to our democracy. Are Ministers now confident that the Government is doing enough to deal with state actors who are trying to undermine our political systems and institutions?
Minister reply
We will ensure the taskforce focuses on all aspects of security, including democratic integrity.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
With the recent incident in Northern Ireland involving a terrorist attack and several people being injured by plastic explosive devices, is the Minister considering whether his taskforce should deal with that sort of issue? The impact on the security services is significant.
Minister reply
The taskforce will address all relevant threats to democratic institutions, including physical attacks.
Yvette Cooper
Lab
Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley
Question
Welcomes the statement but raises concerns about past security lapses involving former Prime Ministers Boris Johnson and Elizabeth Truss. Questions whether the current Home Secretary was involved in a leak when she was Attorney General.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the shadow Home Secretary's comments, noting the importance of responsibility for all MPs and highlighting the National Security Bill and foreign influence registration scheme legislation. Refuses to comment on individual cases but emphasises the need for national security cooperation.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
Apologises for early departure but congratulates the Minister on his responsibilities. Raises concerns about oversight of new organisations and asks if taskforce activities involving scrutiny will fall under the purview of the Intelligence and Security Committee.
Minister reply
Commits to working with the Intelligence and Security Committee and other relevant Committees to ensure proper democratic oversight, emphasising the importance of secure facilities and suitably cleared staff.
Stuart McDonald
SNP
Glasgow South
Question
The Scottish National party spokesman thanked the Minister for his statement and acknowledged the taskforce's importance. He inquired about the timescale, membership appointment process, devolved Governments' participation, and security measures following phone hacking incidents involving former Prime Ministers and Home Secretaries.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat confirmed that he would set out details regarding the taskforce’s operation and ensure devolved Governments’ views are considered. He emphasised the global nature of cybersecurity issues, citing examples from France and other countries, and stressed the importance of international collaboration in defending democracy.
Chingford and Woodford Green
Question
The MP expressed concerns over security lapses within the Government, such as carrying switched-off phones into meetings. He questioned why China was not identified as a threat during the initial integrated review and requested that China be reclassified as a strategic threat.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat acknowledged the importance of treating China as a long-term strategic threat and pledged to defend every Member of Parliament, regardless of party affiliation. He also highlighted the support provided by GCHQ and Parliament’s security office in advising on security risks.
Andrew Gwynne
Ind
Gorton and Denton
Question
The MP welcomed the cross-party approach to the taskforce and sought assurances that updates from the taskforce would be brought to the House for scrutiny, considering the sensitive nature of some subjects.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat confirmed willingness to bring reports back to the House but noted they may include caveated details due to sensitivity. He assured transparency while ensuring appropriate scrutiny.
Question
The MP asked about urgent actions for growing domestic food and energy production to bolster national security.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat acknowledged the importance of reshaping supply chains due to changes post-COVID and decoupling efforts by some states, but did not provide specific details on taskforce operations.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Question
The MP suggested the National Security Bill should include a whistleblower defence and proposed meeting with Minister Tugendhat to discuss an amendment.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat indicated willingness to meet regarding the amendment, noting that his colleague at BEIS would also be available for discussions.
Question
The MP welcomed Minister Tugendhat and praised his taskforce idea. She emphasised protecting Members from misinformation and cyber-attacks while stressing international cooperation in championing democracy.
Minister reply
Minister Tugendhat commended Vicky Ford's work in championing journalism and stressed the importance of a free press for democratic institutions.
Dan Jarvis
Lab
Barnsley North
Question
I warmly welcome the Minister to his important new role. He and I have spent many years safeguarding the security of information; these are matters that I know he takes very seriously, and I wish him well in the role. Because I know the Minister takes these matters so seriously, I want to return briefly to the shadow Home Secretary’s point about the importance of doing the right thing and the importance of personal conduct. In addition to the measures that the Minister has outlined to the House today, there is an absolute requirement for a vigilant mindset among all Members of this House, but most critically among Ministers, who need to show leadership in the area. Does he agree that when it comes to matters of national security, everyone—everyone—must adhere to the protective regime or be deprived of access and removed from their position if necessary? Those are the rules, and everyone should follow them at all times.
Minister reply
May I take a moment to pay enormous tribute to my friend? We met in Helmand about 16 years ago, when he was commanding a unit that I was sent to check up on. Well, he is checking up on me now—and he is quite right to hold me to account for my words, as I was sent to hold him to account for his actions back then. He is absolutely right. I know that his bedtime reading is the US army field manual: the first words are “Every day, do one thing to improve your defensive position.”
Question
I welcome my right hon. Friend to his place. It was a pleasure to serve with him on the National Security Bill Committee. I also welcome the taskforce that he has set out. Last week, a number of us went with the armed forces parliamentary scheme to Shrivenham, where we not only heard from some of the leading experts in cyber in our armed forces, but saw the new Defence Cyber Academy, which was announced only a few weeks ago by the Defence Secretary. Will the Minister work with our armed forces on cyber to protect British companies and our institutions from Russian and Chinese cyber-attacks that put our national security at risk?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words and for his work on the Bill Committee; he has been an absolute stalwart on the issue and has been a very dear friend for a lot longer. I also pay tribute to the armed forces parliamentary scheme and its work to make Members of this House aware of the various ways in which the armed forces play such a vital role in our national life. My hon. Friend’s comments on cyber awareness are absolutely correct, and I agree with every word.
Gavin Robinson
DUP
Belfast East
Question
As the Democratic Unionist party spokesman for home affairs, may I express my personal delight at seeing the Minister in his place? I hope that when he is constructing this welcome taskforce, he will recognise that our recent history and our contemporary position in Northern Ireland mean that we have a contribution to make. The Minister and I were elected at the same time. Since then, we have had the strategic defence and security review, the modernising defence programme, the national security capability review and the integrated review, which formed part of his statement. There are two common threads in those four exercises: the threats get bigger, but the budget remains the same. Does he have an assurance at this stage that if the taskforce brings forward a new programme of work to address emerging threats, it will have the associated budget to tackle them?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. As he will know, not only is the voice of Ulster heard very clearly in the integrated review, but it actually holds the pen. It is a pleasure to commit to working with him and others across the United Kingdom to make sure that voices are heard. On resources, we are in the early stages: at the moment we are setting out how we can work together better, but there is an awful lot still to do.
Ben Spencer
Con
Runnymede and Weybridge
Question
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and warmly welcome him to his place. In the same way that the UK took a leading role in international collaboration against the Russian invasion of Ukraine, is it taking a leading role in international collaboration against cyber-attacks by hostile actors?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is quite right to talk about international co-operation, because this is not something that we can do alone. Our partners around the world are absolutely integral to our defence. Through agencies such as GCHQ and wider work through the National Cyber Security Centre, the United Kingdom has regularly been leading different forms of engagement and different ways of co-operation. My hon. Friend has my absolute commitment that that will continue and grow, because the way we extend the UK’s influence and defend ourselves is by making sure that our friends and allies are safe, too.
Derek Twigg
Lab
Widnes and Halewood
Question
I welcome the Minister to his post and welcome the taskforce. While I have no reason to doubt his integrity or commitment to security, I am a little disappointed that although the shadow Home Secretary and my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) both raised the issue of the Government’s integrity with respect to security, he has not addressed it. I thought he might have taken that opportunity, given the situation with Ministers’ email use and the security issues surrounding it. We know that mobile phones and other phones are being used, we have seen the former Prime Minister going off to meet an ex-KGB agent, and there is an issue about Russian money in the Conservative party. I thought that the Minister would address the question of how we can have confidence that he and the Government will put things right to ensure that they take security within the Government seriously. The question that I want to ask the Minister is very simple. Given that the focus has rightly been on Russia and China, on what is happening in Ukraine—obviously—and on energy security, may I suggest that it is important for us not to lose sight of the fact that we need to keep on top of the issue of how we combat terrorism? It seems to have been left on the back burner recently, but we need to know and feel more comfortable about what the Government intend to do to protect the country from terrorism.
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. He is absolutely right. There is, sadly, no let-up in the concern about terrorism, and we know that the fact that we do not hear of incidents does not mean they were not prevented by our fantastic agencies in various different ways. The experience that I think must be the most sobering I have had for a long time was walking into my present role and hearing an update on the threats that we face every day, and the different ways in which our fantastic agencies and the officers who serve them have been conducting themselves in order to protect us. They are absolutely the best of us, and we are blessed and honoured to have them working for us and serving our state. As for the hon. Gentleman’s other points, he will forgive me if I do not go into details. He knows why that is. As the shadow Home Secretary correctly said, it would be inappropriate to discuss operational matters for party advantage.
Question
As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on cyber security, I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. I am sure he is well aware of the importance of disinformation and misinformation and the harm that it is causing to our country at the moment, whether by undermining our democracy or by spreading conspiracy theories. But if he is in any doubt about that, I recommend to him the BBC series “Death by Conspiracy?”, which shows how our constituents are being hurt, and even dying, as a result of the sharing of disinformation by, often, foreign actors. With that in mind, will my right hon. Friend agree, within the taskforce, to look at the role of legal but harmful content and keep it under review? Will he also ensure that we look at the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and its possible reform? Some of the people who are working hard daily to keep us and our businesses safe are currently under threat of legal action just through doing their jobs.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his work on the all-party parliamentary group. He is to right to highlight the threat of disinformation and, indeed, the way in which cyber is being used against us. I am not entirely sure whether it was flattery or mere coincidence that as soon as I took this job, the BBC ran a series of programmes called “The Capture” in which the Security Minister—rather better-looking than me—had managed to annoy a certain hostile power of which we have been speaking this afternoon, and was subject to a number of cyber-attacks. I very much hope it was coincidence, not prediction.
Question
As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I welcome the announcement of the Minister’s taskforce. Some of the issues he has raised were highlighted in our Russia report of 2020. I heard his commitment to the Chair of the ISC to work with him closely, but may I just say to him that, like the rest of us, he is—to use a Robin Day phrase—a here today, gone tomorrow politician? We need this taskforce’s scrutiny to be embedded in the memorandum of understanding between the Committee and the Government, because otherwise—this point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne)—it will be impossible for much of the taskforce’s work to be scrutinised in this place.
Minister reply
The right hon. Gentleman is right to suggest that institutions and structures are what guard us against the “here today, gone tomorrow” whims of politicians, and that setting up such structures is the way we keep ourselves safe. Indeed, the best of our institutions have endured for hundreds of years in order to guarantee those freedoms. The right hon. Gentleman can be absolutely assured that I will be looking at ways in which we can embed such structures to ensure that we keep ourselves safe.
Question
I congratulate the Minister and welcome him to his new role. May I ask him to answer a serious and simple question? He has made great play of cyber-security and the need for us to be technologically aware of threats. If he was made aware that a civil servant or Government employee had been sacked for sharing Government documents in personal email accounts or devices, would he sanction that person’s re-employment, even if they had apologised?
Minister reply
One of the reasons I have always enjoyed debating with the hon. Member is the fact that he finds new ways of asking old questions. I was delighted to hear the question, but I am afraid I am going to return to my old answer, which is that I will not comment on ongoing cases.
Hilary Benn
Lab
Leeds South
Question
When it was reported in the press that the former Foreign Secretary’s phone had been hacked, the former head of MI6 said that Ministers needed to be properly educated about the use of their telephones. Hilary Benn asks if now is the time for a more proactive approach with Members and if people with expertise will be able to attend to give practical advice.
Minister reply
Thomas Tugendhat agrees and assures that any requests from parliamentary security for defending democracy will be taken seriously, including academic freedom.
Andrew Slaughter
Lab
Hammersmith and Chiswick
Question
In her resignation letter, the Home Secretary said she informed the Cabinet Secretary as soon as she realised her mistake. Andrew Slaughter points out that this is incorrect according to the Home Secretary’s own account and questions whether an independent investigation should be conducted.
Minister reply
Thomas Tugendhat acknowledges the hon. Gentleman's point but does not provide a specific response.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Question
Clive Efford inquires whether there are questions about the Home Secretary’s full security clearance and asks for an assurance that she has it, or if not, what the implications are.
Minister reply
Thomas Tugendhat responds that all members of the King’s Privy Council have access to necessary information.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
Jim Shannon welcomes a taskforce for the UK and questions what steps will be taken to deal with people who chant in support of the IRA, ensuring support for the Police Service of Northern Ireland at all times.
Minister reply
Thomas Tugendhat assures that all security policy will include the whole of the United Kingdom and commits to working with the PSNI.
Shadow Comment
Yvette Cooper
Shadow Comment
The Shadow Minister for Security, Yvette Cooper, welcomed the statement but raised concerns about past security breaches by Conservative Ministers. She highlighted instances where guidance was ignored, such as former Prime Minister Boris Johnson's trip to Italy during the Skripal crisis, which was not declared to Foreign Office officials and involved potential security lapses. Cooper questioned current Government attitudes towards security and emphasised that national security is too important for chaos. She urged the Minister to show grip at the heart of the Government on security issues.
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