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BBC Funding
17 January 2022
Lead MP
Nadine Dorries
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Culture, Media & Sport
Other Contributors: 59
At a Glance
Nadine Dorries raised concerns about bbc funding in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Under article 43 of the BBC’s royal charter, Nadine Dorries has determined a funding settlement for the level of the licence fee for five years from April 2022. The minister highlights that this is the first time S4C has been prominently featured in a licence fee settlement and will now receive public funding through the licence fee exclusively as per the recommendation from an independent review completed in 2018. The BBC's requested increase to over £180 was rejected, with the licence fee frozen at £159 for two years before rising with inflation for the next four years. An additional £7.5 million funding per annum is provided to S4C, marking a 9% rise following five years of stagnation. The Government also doubled the BBC’s borrowing limit to £750 million to bolster commercial growth and investment in the creative economy. Dorries emphasises the importance of impartiality at the BBC following recent reviews and commits to further reform including a mid-term review on governance and regulation, as well as an overall licence fee model review due to technological advancements in broadcasting.
Lucy Powell
Lab
Manchester Central
Question
The shadow secretary challenges the Minister on the implications of a two-year licence fee freeze for BBC output and commissioning. She also questions how distinct broadcasting in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland will be maintained without a licence fee.
Minister reply
No answer provided.
Lucy Powell
Lab Co-op
Manchester Central
Question
Powell criticised the Minister's decision to freeze the licence fee, questioning its timing and motives. She highlighted that the £13.57 monthly cost of the licence fee is trivial compared to other financial pressures faced by families. She also questioned the impact on local journalism and creative industries, and raised concerns about BBC World Service, educational programming for children, and impartiality.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledged that the decision was not intended to destroy the BBC but rather alleviate pressure on hard-pressed families who face financial difficulties due to rising costs. She emphasised that the £23 billion of public money will continue to support the BBC over the charter period until 2027.
Question
Bottomley expressed dissatisfaction with the process and proposal, questioning why this is the only area where increases are not considered during tough economic times. He suggested a moderated increase linked to inflation and raised concerns about public broadcasting's future without subscription or state funding.
Minister reply
The Minister stated that the decision on the future funding model will be discussed openly and debated in the House, noting that even under this settlement, the BBC will continue receiving billions of pounds. She argued against justifying further increases given inflationary pressures.
Question
Nicolson criticised the Minister's timing and motives for the announcement, questioning the sincerity behind claims to protect pensioners from court cases. He highlighted that pensioners would struggle with alternative subscription models and accused the government of a visceral loathing towards BBC critics.
Minister reply
The Minister rejected the notion that debates about future funding models suggest privatisation or destruction of public service broadcasting, asserting that such discussions will ensure better stewardship of public funds.
Question
Knight welcomed the freeze and sought clarification on whether the licence fee would be phased out in 2028. He also questioned how alternative funding models would work given broadband coverage issues.
Minister reply
The Minister confirmed that discussions about future funding have not yet begun but will involve all Members of the House, including analysis by committees such as the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee. She noted that 97% of homes in the UK already have superfast broadband.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Question
Will the Secretary of State say what impact assessment she has done of the impact that the change will have on households if fees were increased? What will be the impact on services provided by the BBC as a consequence of these freezes to its income, on top of the 31% that it has had cut from its income over the past 10 years?
Minister reply
Both I and my predecessor have been negotiating with the BBC for a considerable period, and the BBC will be meeting its mission and core purpose. The most important impact assessment is that fewer families will end up in a magistrates court.
Damian Green
Con
Ashford
Question
Like many of the best things in this country, the BBC licence fee may not work in theory but works really well in practice. There are many alternative ways of funding it, but as the DCMS Committee concluded last year, the Government either need to support the current model for at least the next Charter period (2028-2038) or come out with a strong alternative.
Minister reply
I am afraid that we differ in our opinions. We have five or six years—there is plenty of time to decide what a future funding model would look like.
Barnsley Central
Question
We abolished the radio licence fee in 1979 and moved to a TV licence fee, so I am not against moving towards an internet licence fee or something like it. But we need to know the details, the thresholds and the amount of money that would be raised. Does the Secretary of State accept that her announcement that this would be the last licence fee, without going through the consultation first, was reckless?
Minister reply
As I said, when the new model starts in 2027-28, many of us may not even be here—we are talking six years away. I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s contribution and look forward to his being part of the discussion and debate about what we do in the future.
Steve Brine
Con
Winchester
Question
The Select Committee report acknowledges that the Government will need to act to ensure that the public service broadcasting system remains sustainable. Given that the Select Committee report is also clear that the Government need a credible view on what any alternative to the licence fee might be and on what their vision is for the future of public service broadcasting, what are my right hon. Friend’s instincts as she kicks off this welcome national debate?
Minister reply
My instincts are let’s start the discussion. Let’s have a look at the—[Interruption.] That is what I am starting, Mr Speaker.
Emma Lewell-Buck
Lab
South Shields
Question
Despite the fact that the removal of the free licence for the over-75s was a result of her own party’s actions, the Secretary of State’s tweet yesterday indicated that her attack on the BBC was due to the over-75s being threatened with prison sentences and bailiffs knocking on their doors. Yet less than two weeks ago, she told this House that no enforcement action has been taken against anyone over 75 years of age.
Minister reply
The hon. Lady has drawn a direct link between two different parts of my tweet when there is no direct link; it is just one of many reasons why I want to look at how we fund a great British institution in the future.
Simon Jupp
Con
Sherwood
Question
I accept the need to freeze the licence fee. However, the conversation over the future of the licence fee is far from over. What steps will the Secretary of State take to protect the BBC’s local services before the knives are sharpened within the BBC?
Minister reply
The conversation has not actually started. Local radio is an important point.
Rupa Huq
Lab
Ealing Central and Acton
Question
Growing up, my cousins overseas always told me that they listened to the BBC when they wanted to know the truth. Will she tell all of us where exactly the change was in the Conservative manifesto? Already, people are seeing it as just a distraction for party gain.
Minister reply
Excellent question. I am not going to conflate Channel 4 with the BBC; I am here to talk about the settlement of the licence fee.
Jeremy Wright
Con
Kenilworth and Southam
Question
My right hon. Friend must be right that the BBC cannot stand still while the rest of the world moves along, but does she accept that when we think about the future funding of the BBC, we have to consider both the content that is marketable and commercially successful, and the content that is not?
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that contribution and he is absolutely right.
Jamie Stone
LD
Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross
Question
Could I just say to the Secretary of State that I wish I had the level of broadband coverage that she talks about in my constituency? When I was a councillor—a member of the Highland Council—I had to be very careful of the BBC, because its reporting of all I said and did was thorough. Can I ask the Secretary of State how she intends to make sure that we do not lose out on that front?
Minister reply
Democracy, particularly local democracy, is at the heart of a lot of what the BBC does.
Maldon
Question
My right hon. Friend will be aware that last year, the number of TV licences purchased fell by 700,000, and more young people are now saying they do not need to watch the BBC because of streaming services. Does she agree that we will still need public service broadcasting and therefore it is right to have a debate about the future funding model?
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. Friend, and that was my response to my early question: how do we keep good content—great British content—made in the UK?
John McDonnell
Lab
Hayes and Harlington
Question
Many of us find it nauseating that the Secretary of State has come here to talk about hard-pressed families when she supported the £20 cut to universal credit. Could we test how much she considered some of these factors? How much more money is generated by the investment in the BBC?
Minister reply
I will write to the right hon. Gentleman with those specific figures.
Damian Collins
Con
Monmouth
Question
The MP asks if the Secretary of State agrees that reform is necessary for the BBC to thrive in the digital age, considering changes in viewing habits and declining licence fee payers.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledges the need for change due to rapid digital transformation but emphasises the importance of sustaining public funding for the BBC.
Sammy Wilson
DUP
East Antrim
Question
Welcoming the Secretary of State's readiness to tackle issues such as the licence fee and broadcasting bias, Sammy Wilson urges her not to back down on these matters.
Minister reply
The Minister confirms that BBC will continue to receive funding until 2027 but emphasises the need for reform due to changing viewing habits.
Question
Asks if the licence fee should be decriminalised and treated like any other household bill.
Minister reply
The Minister states that this is under review, considering today's context where individuals face potential bailiffs or criminal prosecution for non-payment.
Kate Green
Lab
Wirral South
Question
Asks about guarantees for the BBC’s world-class salaried orchestras and their economic impact.
Minister reply
The Minister confirms funding but notes that she does not dictate how the BBC spends its money.
Alun Cairns
Con
Vale of Glamorgan
Question
Asks if S4C will improve transparency and publish invoices over £500.
Minister reply
The Minister supports S4C's role in supporting the Welsh economy, culture, and society but suggests discussing transparency improvements.
Valerie Vaz
Lab
Walsall and Bloxwich
Question
Asks if £159 a year is value for money given current inflationary pressures.
Minister reply
The Minister notes that the fee freeze is intended to help families but acknowledges challenges under rising costs.
Alec Shelbrooke
Con
Wetherby and Easingwold
Question
Welcomes the statement on freezing licence fees for two years, asking about protecting radio programmes.
Minister reply
The Minister confirms that radio remains a key part of BBC’s output and future discussions.
Hilary Benn
Lab
Leeds Central
Question
Asks for assurances regarding the future of BBC World Service given its importance.
Minister reply
The Minister clarifies that any decisions about funding models are for the BBC to make.
Question
Requests protection for education services provided by the BBC in discussions on future funding.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledges the importance of educational content, mentioning contributions like Bitesize during the pandemic.
Janet Daby
Lab
Lewisham East
Question
Claims today's announcement shows contempt for British institutions.
Minister reply
The Minister disagrees with this characterization.
Question
Thanks the Secretary of State for making a statement and offers support on abolishing the licence fee.
Minister reply
The Minister expresses appreciation and openness to collaboration.
Kevan Jones
Lab
Durham
Question
Asks about the timing and process of deciding on freezing the licence fee.
Minister reply
The Minister confirms Cabinet approval but notes ongoing negotiations since her predecessor's tenure.
Huw Merriman
Con
Bexhill and Battle
Question
Asks about discussions on content reduction due to the decision made today.
Minister reply
The Minister emphasises maintaining the BBC but focuses on modernizing funding approaches.
Kirsty Blackman
SNP
Aberdeen North
Question
Asks about the impact of the statement on BBC employees and its implications for future licence fees.
Minister reply
The Minister suggests that a world where individual households pay an outdated fee in 2028 is unlikely.
Question
In a globalised media landscape, is it daft to suggest that people will have to pay for the whole lot from BBC services starting in 2028?
Minister reply
The debate needs to consider changing viewing habits and the impact of new technologies like TikTok. The current proposal involves freezing the licence fee until 2027.
Tulip Siddiq
Lab
Hampstead and Highgate
Question
Does the Secretary of State recognise the BBC’s crucial investigative role, especially in uncovering issues like the cladding scandal? Will her proposals cut funding for these programmes?
Minister reply
The budgets for BBC's investigative programmes are set by the BBC itself.
Edward Leigh
Con
Gainsborough
Question
In rural areas with poor broadband connectivity, can we ensure that reforms will not be implemented until everyone can stream content?
Minister reply
The debate is about future funding and does not hinge on current streaming capabilities.
Stephen Doughty
Lab Co-op
Cardiff South and Penarth
Question
Does the Secretary of State accept that her proposals put at risk jobs and opportunities in Cardiff's creative economy, including those in deprived communities?
Minister reply
S4C will receive additional funding from the licence fee for digital investment.
Question
How does today’s announcement impact on the timescale for announcements about Channel 4’s future, especially concerning its new headquarters in Yorkshire?
Minister reply
The statement is about the BBC's licence fee settlement and not related to Channel 4.
Newcastle upon Tyne North
Question
Does the Secretary of State rule out undermining or sacrificing the BBC in order to save the Prime Minister’s political skin?
Minister reply
No.
Question
What discussions is she having with the BBC to ensure that the licence fee can achieve value for money during this freeze?
Minister reply
Regular meetings are held with the director-general, chair and other members of the BBC.
Question
Does today’s announcement make it more or less likely that the BBC will play “God Save the Queen” more often? Will slashing its funding strengthen or weaken the glue holding the Union together?
Minister reply
Playing “God Save the Queen” is not a dirty word and reflects on national pride.
David Simmonds
Con
Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner
Question
What objectives or processes might my right hon. Friend have in mind to ensure that the quality of the output where the BBC is world-leading remains intact?
Minister reply
The debate aims to protect the BBC's content and its ability to produce and sell UK-made content globally.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West
Question
Is the attack on the BBC motivated by an inability to stand a successful British public sector institution?
Minister reply
No.
Question
Does she agree that any new long-term model of funding for the BBC will need to take into account possible implications and repercussions for commercial public service broadcasters relying on advertising?
Minister reply
Everything needs to be considered in preparation for a future funding model starting from 2028.
Ben Lake
PC
Ceredigion Preseli
Question
How can real-terms cuts to the BBC settlement not see a reduction in its important contribution to Welsh language services?
Minister reply
S4C’s funding will consolidate and increase, while the overall BBC's funding is frozen for two years.
Jerome Mayhew
Con
Broadland and Fakenham
Question
We have to accept that the media landscape, and importantly its use, has changed beyond recognition over the past few years, so I agree with Lord Grade, the former chair of the BBC, that a universal regressive tax to pay for a BBC that is no longer universally used is no longer defensible. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the BBC, now and in future, has a vital role to play in creating a version of our common truth at home and abroad?
Minister reply
That vital role of the BBC moving forward is one of the issues that we have to ensure we protect, along with the British content that we make. The fact is that the BBC is a global beacon around the world and people in other countries depend upon it. Maintaining the BBC is something we have to protect, but how it is to be funded is the question.
Fleur Anderson
Lab
Putney
Question
I am British and proud of it, and I am proud of the BBC. It reaches 468 million people in 42 languages around the world every week. It is the envy of the world. Cutting funding to the BBC and the World Service already leaves the path clear for Russian and Chinese influence in those countries. Does the Secretary of State agree that only an unpatriotic party would cut the real-terms funding of that national treasure?
Minister reply
Unpatriotic? I do not think it was this side of the House that was laughing about the prospect of the national anthem being played on television; I think it was that side of the House. I disagree—I am not unpatriotic; I am very patriotic.
Question
The people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke want the licence fee to be scrapped. When I had 3,000 respondents to a survey, 96% of them agreed with that. They feel that the BBC spoke down to them when they voted for Brexit and that it is out of touch with the people and values of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke. It is time for the BBC, like the Labour party, to get out of the metropolitan bubble and spend some time in Stoke-on-Trent in order to understand what people think. It is welcome that my right hon. Friend has frozen the licence fee and opened the conversation, but does she agree that it is time to scrap the licence fee altogether?
Minister reply
We can all see how, once again, my hon. Friend speaks up for his constituents. He spoke about scrapping not the BBC but the licence fee, because I am sure that his constituents want to watch and enjoy the BBC. This is about how we fund the BBC in a modern digital landscape at a time when young people consume their television in different ways.
Chris Bryant
Lab
Rhondda and Ogmore
Question
I wish the Secretary of State would stop with the crocodile tears about the cost-of-living crisis, because £159 is a lot of money, particularly for my constituents, but it happens to be exactly the same amount, on average, as they will pay in extra national insurance from April this year. If the Government really cared about the cost-of-living crisis, they could do something about that. My real fear is that she simply does not understand how intrinsic to the nature of the BBC and its success around the world the licence fee is. It means that there is something for everybody—for all my constituents—including the poorest constituents, who cannot afford Sky. She says that the BBC gets lots of money, but Sky got five times as much money this year, and its revenues this year increased by 18.9%. Yes, this is an unpatriotic move to dismantle one of the greatest British treasures.
Minister reply
The hon. Gentleman talks about £159, but the BBC wanted it to project to £180. This is one of the levers that we have in Government to help hard-working families, given the increasing inflationary pressures.
Question
I praise the Secretary of State for helping to tackle the rising cost of living for many families at a difficult time. Does she agree that since they are having to tighten their belts, perhaps the BBC should do the same? A good place to start might be with salaries, including that of one of its presenters, who earns £1.36 million a year.
Minister reply
Businesses across the UK are having to tighten their belts. Households across the UK are facing inflationary pressures and having to tighten their belts. The two-year freeze on the licence fee means the BBC will be doing the same.
Daisy Cooper
Lib Dem
St Albans
Question
Last Wednesday, at Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister was challenged about the future of the licence fee. He seemed to caution against this by referring to the BBC as a “great national institution”, yet by the weekend the Secretary of State was tweeting that this would be the last licence fee agreement. Will she explain to the House what on earth has been going on in No. 10 since Wednesday that has led to what appears to be a screeching U-turn?
Minister reply
As I have said on a number of occasions, we have been having these discussions for months. Legally, I have to make an announcement as far in advance of April as possible.
Richard Fuller
Con
North Bedfordshire
Question
I commend my right hon. Friend for freezing the licence fee and launching an inquiry into its future. Will she confirm that, first, impartiality and the licence fee are different issues? Secondly, if Netflix can go from one twentieth the size of the BBC to eight times its size in just 20 years, is there not plenty of scope for creative thinking? Thirdly, will she encourage the leadership of the BBC to respond positively, and not with the defeatist and backward-looking attitude of the Labour party?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for his question. Impartiality and the licence fee are two entirely separate things.
Matt Western
Lab
Warwick and Leamington
Question
I am very proud of the BBC—it is the best of British, and it is recognised and respected around the world. It is also the best of value. Its fee works out as two thirds of the price of a pint of milk per day—I happen to know the price of a pint of milk. Is the simple truth not that the Prime Minister, unlike previous Prime Ministers such as Margaret Thatcher and many others, is frightened of the BBC and of being scrutinised? Margaret Thatcher actually phoned in to Radio 4’s “Today” programme. This Prime Minister would prefer to hide in the fridge.
Minister reply
The Prime Minister is a huge fan of the BBC and of “Today”. The discussions that we are having are to help protect the BBC, because if anyone sitting here thinks that we could go to households in 2028 and expect them to pay the licence fee—with fear of prosecution if they do not—in order to watch the television that they have bought and put in their house, they are, frankly, a dinosaur.
Question
On the Conservative side we have a proud history with S4C. Today is another important step forward. I thank the Secretary of State for putting S4C at the core of her statement, and for the £7.5 million increase per annum. Could I draw her into a meeting with me and likeminded colleagues about the Welsh language, and the fact that core public service broadcasters have nurtured it and helped it grow, such as S4C and BBC Radio Cymru?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend and am happy to have such a meeting. For five years S4C had no increase in its funding, and it was high time that it did.
Chris Evans
Lab Co-op
Caerphilly
Question
The family in Cumbria that the Secretary of State talked about, who were streaming five different movies in five different rooms, are probably paying a minimum of £43 a month for Netflix, Sky and broadband. That does not include the social value that the BBC provides, from educating youngsters through CBeebies and CBBC, to the company it provides for those suffering from loneliness, along with the innovation of BBC iPlayer and BBC Sounds. Will she assure me that this freeze will not diminish the vital services that the BBC provides?
Minister reply
The licence fee settlement ensures that the BBC can continue to meet its mission and its purposes, and it will continue to receive billions of pounds of funding—£23 billion over the licence fee settlement period.
James Wild
Con
North West Norfolk
Question
When the BBC came before the Public Accounts Committee, it was striking how unambitious its target was for growing commercial revenues, which represent just 6% of its current income. Will this welcome decision, including the increase in the borrowing limit, which the BBC asked for, come with a requirement for the BBC to increase that income rapidly and reduce the burden of the licence tax?
Minister reply
Increasing access to private equity was one of the first steps towards doing that.
Grahame Morris
Lab
Easington
Question
We have already seen the loss of hundreds of jobs of BBC journalists involved in the much-valued regional news and current affairs programming, including the excellent “Inside Out” programme. Before making the decision to freeze the fee, what assessment did the Secretary of State make of the impact on local and regional news programming?
Minister reply
This is about increasing and reforming services across the BBC, to ensure that the BBC is there in the future and able to service the hon. Gentleman’s constituents.
Question
Acknowledging the value of the BBC but welcoming the licence fee review, Fletcher asks if it is important to ensure that future funding models cater for viewers like her in future generations.
Minister reply
Dorries agrees and notes the changing consumption patterns among young people who watch TV content via YouTube. She emphasises the need to discuss the future of BBC funding.
Question
Expressing concern over the post-2020 situation for S4C and Radio Cymru in Wales, Edwards asks if there will be a full consultation with Welsh stakeholders.
Minister reply
Dorries responds by mentioning additional £7.5 million funding to S4C, stating that she has not mentioned subscription models but instead wants to begin discussions on future funding.
Greg Smith
Con
Mid Buckinghamshire
Question
Welcoming the freeze in licence fees and advocating for a discussion about de-linking the requirement of paying for BBC content to watch other content, Smith queries Dorries' opinion.
Minister reply
Dorries finds the concept interesting but indicates that it is part of ongoing discussions.
Question
Inquiring if allowing advertisements on BBC could be a funding option and questioning potential risks to balanced factual reporting.
Minister reply
Dorries confirms the early stages of discussion but states that they have not reached the level of detail regarding advertising.
Shadow Comment
Lucy Powell
Shadow Comment
Shadow Secretary Lucy Powell criticises the timing of the Minister's announcement, suggesting it was made to distract from the Prime Minister’s leadership issues. She disputes claims that the licence fee is central to the cost-of-living crisis and questions the Government's long-standing vendetta against the BBC. Powell raises concerns about the impact of the two-year freeze on BBC output and commissioning, as well as the sustainability of valued services such as local journalism, support for creative industries in regions like Wales and Scotland, global soft power via the World Service, and educational programming during lockdowns.
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