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Post Office: GLO Compensation Scheme
07 December 2022
Lead MP
Grant Shapps
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Business & TradeBenefits & Welfare
Other Contributors: 19
At a Glance
Grant Shapps raised concerns about post office: glo compensation scheme in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister, Grant Shapps, made a statement about the Horizon scandal involving Post Office group litigation compensation. He expressed deep regret and apologised for the injustice caused to postmasters who were wrongly accused due to issues with the Horizon system. The compensation scheme will now be administered by BEIS through an alternative dispute resolution approach. All payments under this scheme will be disregarded for benefits purposes, ensuring they do not affect eligibility for means-tested benefits or pension credits. Compensation is expected to start flowing before summer 2023 and most cases should be resolved by the end of that year. The Government will cover reasonable legal costs in claiming under the scheme. An independent advisory board chaired by Professor Chris Hodges will oversee the compensation process.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central
Question
The shadow minister asked how long it will take for compensation schemes to pay appropriate compensation and whether these aim to return people to their original position had the scandal not occurred. She also inquired about legal firms involved, financial sources of the scheme, impact on post office services or other budgets due to the cost-of-living crisis, support from Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance and Alan Bates, intentions towards holding Fujitsu accountable, and stance on Paula Vennells' CBE award.
Minister reply
The minister acknowledged the concerns and emphasised the Government's commitment to providing fair compensation as soon as possible. He did not specify legal firms involved but promised transparency in their selection process, and indicated that funding would come from government reserves without affecting essential services or budgets disproportionately.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central
Question
While welcoming the statement and apology, Chi Onwurah expressed concern over the timeline for compensation payments, questioned where funds would come from amidst a cost of living crisis, raised concerns about post office service impact, and asked if the scheme has support from key groups like the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. She also inquired about legal representation involved and whether Fujitsu will be held accountable.
Minister reply
Grant Shapps acknowledged the questions but defended his government's role in addressing the issue, noting that his predecessor Paul Scully had initiated important steps towards resolution. He highlighted efforts to work closely with affected individuals, including Alan Bates from the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, and mentioned the ongoing Sir Wyn Williams inquiry which aims to provide clarity on what went wrong.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
Julian Lewis questioned whether the ongoing inquiry would reveal how hundreds of people with unblemished records could be prosecuted based solely on a computer programme's findings in a modern democracy.
Minister reply
Grant Shapps confirmed that Sir Wyn Williams's inquiry is intended to uncover such details, stressing its importance in understanding the systemic issues involved.
Question
Marion Fellows thanked the Minister for allowing her early sight of his statement and expressed appreciation towards Alan Bates from the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), and Lord Arbuthnot for their work on this issue.
Minister reply
Grant Shapps thanked Marion Fellows for her work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices and assured her that his Department will closely monitor the compensation scheme's implementation.
Question
Lucy Allan welcomed the tone of the statement and expressed concern about justice being served through accountability measures. She asked for assurances from the BEIS Secretary regarding proper, fair, and prompt dealings with sub-postmasters involved in the compensation scheme.
Minister reply
Grant Shapps assured Lucy Allan that no stone will be left unturned to ensure full accountability and fair treatment of all those affected by the Horizon scandal.
Darren Jones
Lab
Bristol North West
Question
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome the announcements made today and the appointments of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and Lord Arbuthnot in the other place. In respect of the benefit disregards, can the Secretary of state confirm when the statutory instrument will be tabled? It will not take long to do, and it should be done quickly. Can he also confirm that while we are waiting for the benefit disregards to come into force, the victims who suffer loss as a consequence of that will be given additional compensation to cover the deductions from their benefits and pension payments?
Minister reply
I am just taking advice from my hon. Friend the small business Minister on the interim payments, and I think the answer is yes. On the scheduling of the SI, it will be done as quickly as possible in terms of parliamentary business, but that will not hold anything up because the payments have to be made first. They will be well in advance of that, and the commitment is in the statement today to lay the SI.
Question
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and I also thank his Department for allowing Back-Bench colleagues from across the House with a long-term interest in this topic to be involved in the formulation of the compensation scheme. Will he commit to keeping the House updated on the progress of the compensation scheme? Let us all hope that sometime in the near future he will be able to come to the Dispatch Box and tell us that all the compensation has been paid to the recipients.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend, and yes, we will certainly keep the House fully informed. My hon. Friend the small business Minister will be providing updates as well.
Question
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. I also thank the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). Can I also put on record my thanks to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully)? In a long list of useless and indifferent Ministers over the years, he was the only one who actually got it and was determined to sort it out. Does the Secretary of State agree that what we need next, following the public inquiry, is for those individuals who were responsible for ruining people’s lives—in some cases people took their own lives; others who were innocent went to prison—to be held to account? It has to be a determination for the Department to ensure that those individuals—whether they are in the Post Office or in his Department—face the day of reckoning that should be coming to them in a court of law.
Minister reply
I again pay tribute, as I think the whole House does, to the right hon. Gentleman’s extraordinary work on this issue. On his central point, the lessons absolutely have to be learned. To really get to the nub of the right hon. Gentleman’s point: I agree with him, and we will not allow any process or shyness of what it might uncover to prevent the legal process from being able to run its full course.
Question
As a former chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices, I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, the compensation scheme announcements—particularly on the benefits disregard—and the comments on the timing of what will happen. However, there are going to be some shocking lessons from this scandal that we need to learn, revolving around who knew what, and when, and what the role of the Federation of SubPostmasters was during this crisis. Will the Secretary of State agree that when the inquiry is finished there should be another debate in this House to make sure that we really do learn those lessons?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On his central point, the lessons absolutely have to be learned. As I said earlier, anyone who has watched this just as a bystander can still feel their blood boiling. This must be a salutary lesson for the idea that a computer can never be programmed in an incorrect way or have a loophole.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Question
I thank the Secretary of State for his work in coming up with the scheme in such a short time. People at the very top must have made decisions to block defence lawyers getting information that was incredibly important to the defendants’ defences. Those victims and their families will not feel they have had justice until every single person responsible is criminally investigated, potentially prosecuted and sent to prison for a very long time. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that this is his intention?
Minister reply
The hon. Gentleman is a powerful campaigner on this issue. Following what Mr Speaker said, I do not want to stray too far into the judicial area. When Sir Wyn Williams completes his inquiry and makes his recommendations, this Government will take every single proposal very seriously.
Question
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and, in particular, the apology. Will he and the Department continue to work tirelessly not only for justice but for compensation for all the victims?
Minister reply
To my hon. Friend’s constituent Maria, and to everybody else involved, the answer is yes.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Question
We are not quite at the end of the road, but there is a sense today that perhaps the end of the road is in sight. I echo colleagues in taking a great deal of comfort from the participation of the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and Lord Arbuthnot in future proceedings. One of the lessons we have to learn is that it is all too easy for people in Government and public bodies to use taxpayers’ money to defend situations where they have made mistakes. Why should subpostmasters be treated differently?
Minister reply
Again, it is a dangerous and sometimes potent mixture to have the backing of essentially endless taxpayers’ money in a battle of David and Goliath. Ministers always have to be careful to weigh the advice to make sure that, when we wield the power of the state, we do so in the interest of society as a whole and not detrimental to individual citizens—in this case postmasters and sub-postmasters.
Siobhan Baillie
Con
Stroud
Question
Pays tribute to Nichola Arch and hundreds like her who have campaigned for justice, and raises concerns about the involvement of ambulance-chasing third-party organisations in past compensation schemes. Questions whether the scheme has been designed so that postmasters do not need to rely on such organisations.
Minister reply
Emphasises that the scheme avoids a complex and expensive legal process by going through an alternative dispute resolution process, which is aimed at ensuring there are no large costs for those who should have been compensated long ago.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham
Question
Pays tribute to Lord Arbuthnot and others for their work on the issue. Questions whether the Government will provide full disclosure of documents required for future legal proceedings, and inquires about how justice will be pursued without further funding issues.
Minister reply
Acknowledges that Sir Wyn Williams' inquiry will make recommendations and that the Government is likely to look favourably upon them. States that an independent panel includes individuals who will ensure errors are not repeated, and highlights the importance of avoiding large costs in the process.
Dean Russell
Con
Watford
Question
Welcomes the Secretary of State's commitment and use of the word 'travesty'. Questions about regular communications from the Government on this issue, both in the House and outside.
Minister reply
Agrees to ensure regular communication through himself and the small business Minister, as communication is intended to prevent additional stress and anxiety.
Mick Whitley
Con
Bridgwater and West Somerset
Question
Welcomes the statement but raises concerns about the dangers of using intrusive surveillance technology in workplaces. Asks if the Government will make it a statutory duty for employers to consult trade unions before introducing AI and automated decision-making systems.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the importance of careful implementation of new technologies like AI, emphasising the need for testing inputs and programming to avoid future scandals. Suggests a meeting to discuss the specifics further.
Duncan Baker
Con
Wycombe
Question
As someone who used to be a postmaster, thanks the Government for reparations but raises issues about investment in the post office network and proper payments for postmasters. Requests better banking services through post offices on high streets.
Minister reply
Pays tribute to his experience as a postmaster and acknowledges the importance of supporting high streets. Mentions £300 million invested by the Government into running post offices, but agrees that more discussion is needed.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
Commends the Secretary of State for his statement and mentions the new compensation scheme. Asks if lessons will be learned from the scandal to prevent false accusations in future cases.
Minister reply
Asserts that lessons should be drawn not just by the Post Office or Government but across society, emphasising the dangers inherent in unquestionable positions derived from computer systems.
Shadow Comment
Chi Onwurah
Shadow Comment
Chi Onwurah welcomed the statement and apology as a step forward but questioned the time it took for this outcome. She paid tribute to campaigners and journalists who exposed the scandal. Concerns were raised about the involvement of the Government in defending Post Office against postmasters seeking justice, suggesting accountability measures. Questions were asked regarding legal firms involved in the scheme administration, financial implications during the cost-of-living crisis, and future contracts with Fujitsu, which was linked to the Horizon system.
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