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Veterans Update
19 July 2023
Lead MP
Ben Wallace
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
NHSDefenceMental Health
Other Contributors: 27
At a Glance
Ben Wallace raised concerns about veterans update in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Defence Secretary apologised for the ban on homosexuality between 1967 and 2000 in the armed forces, acknowledging the distress caused to LGBT veterans. He presented an independent review revealing the hardships faced by affected individuals including investigations, bullying, and loss of livelihoods. The minister announced that many recommendations from the report will be implemented, setting up a digital front door for support services, and expressed gratitude to campaigners like Fighting With Pride for their efforts over decades. The statement emphasised cultural changes in the MOD but highlighted that further work is needed.
Richard Graham
Con
Gloucester
Question
The MP asked whether the Government will establish a specific team to work on implementing the recommendations of Lord Etherton’s report, given their importance. He inquired about the possibility of setting up such a team.
Minister reply
The Minister confirmed that they are working across multiple departments and already have measures in place to implement the recommendations. However, he agreed it would be appropriate to establish an official team for coordinated delivery.
Julian Smith
Con
Skipton and Ripon
Question
The MP questioned whether there are plans to support LGBT service members in identifying and addressing the effects of trauma caused by bullying, harassment, or discrimination during their time in the forces.
Minister reply
The Minister stated that they have established a digital front door for veterans and will be providing further details on specific measures to help address mental health issues arising from past traumas. He assured MPs that support would include training allies within the armed forces.
Torfaen
Question
The MP inquired about the process for returning medals and honours to LGBT veterans who were dishonourably discharged due to their sexuality or gender identity, referencing recommendation 25.
Minister reply
The Minister confirmed that they will be looking into a fair and transparent process for returning medals and honours. He stated that this is an important part of making amends and restoring dignity.
Sheryle Lee
Lab
Bolton West
Question
The MP asked about the role of chaplains during the period covered by the review, specifically whether they were involved in passing information to superiors or if there was any form of cover-up.
Minister reply
The Minister noted that while some chaplains did pass on information to superiors, this does not constitute a cover-up. He emphasised that the policy decision regarding legacy police investigation records was made to prevent criminal record checks from showing decriminalised offences.
Nick Fletcher
Con
Woodford
Question
The MP inquired about the impact of the ban on LGBT service members who were serving abroad, particularly in countries where homosexuality is still illegal or punishable by death.
Minister reply
The Minister explained that serving overseas presented unique challenges and risks for LGBT personnel. He committed to ensuring support systems are in place for those affected.
Rachel Hopkins
Lab
Luton South
Question
The hon. Member for Luton South paid tribute to LGBT+ veterans and groups such as Fighting With Pride which have campaigned for justice over the ban, and expressed support for giving back medals and ending the ban on wearing uniforms at remembrance events for dishonourably discharged individuals due to their sexuality or gender identity. She asked about how veterans can seek the return of their medals and how financial awards will be made available.
Minister reply
The Secretary of State acknowledged the hon. Member's points and stated that while they share a desire to honour LGBT+ veterans, some recommendations require careful consideration due to issues like GDPR compliance or differences in opinion within the community. He provided an example of differing views on whether there should be a separate badge for LGBT+ veterans versus them receiving the same badge as other veterans. Mr Wallace pledged to work with organisations such as Fighting With Pride and assured that they would engage with the Labour party ahead of any debate on these matters.
Question
The hon. Member for Reigate reflected on his personal journey of accommodation to societal laws at the time and expressed gratitude for living in a society that now allows him to be himself, asking for an assurance that all 49 recommendations will be delivered in line with the spirit and intention behind them.
Minister reply
The Secretary of State responded by praising the hon. Member’s bravery and ongoing campaigning for LGBT rights and promised to hold to the spirit and intentions behind the recommendations while implementing them transparently. He acknowledged that there may not always be a perfect answer due to differing views within the community, but they will consult closely with affected individuals to find an appropriate solution.
Martin Docherty
Lab Co-op
West Dunbartonshire
Question
I hope you will indulge me for a moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know that this may be the Secretary of State’s last time at the Dispatch Box in this role. We might not have always agreed on a few things, but when it came to issues that I found particularly important as a member of that Committee, especially the High North and the north Atlantic, he always answered the questions in a way that the Committee wanted to hear. I commend him for his work in his current role, and you never know—we might see him back in Holyrood, where it all started.
Minister reply
I am grateful to my honourable colleague across the Floor. As he says, we never know: he may find me back in the Scottish Parliament, where it all began.
James Grey
Con
North Wiltshire
Question
I thank my right hon. Friend, and also the shadow Minister—the hon. Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins)—for all they have had to say about this excellent report. This is a very fine report, and Lord Etherton has done a first-class job in bringing it forward. I very much welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has made a real and heartfelt apology—as did my right hon. Friend in his statement—for this historic outrage. However, would the House agree that the real outrage is that nothing at all has happened for 22 years? It has taken us as a nation 22 years, under all parties, to put this thing right.
Minister reply
I cannot answer the question of why it took 22 years. All I can say is that, from the authority I have in my office for now, having been able to commission this report and start this process is something that I am proud and pleased to have done.
Stephen Doughty
Lab Co-op
Cardiff South and Penarth
Question
I draw the House’s attention to my own interest in this, including my past service as an openly gay Army reservist after the ban. I strongly welcome the apology today, but I am acutely aware that I was able to serve openly only because of the repeal of the ban, and that I had a very different experience in service than that of so many here today, including the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt). Given the recommendations in the report, particularly recommendations 26 and 27, can the Secretary of State tell me whether records will now be able to be changed to truly reflect the service and bravery of so many of our veterans?
Minister reply
I am grateful to the hon. Member for his question and for his service. On the hon. Gentleman’s question of making sure that those veterans who want their service record to say what they want it to and being open about it, we absolutely should see a way of how we can accommodate that.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
Does the review report throw any light on the strange paradox that this ban was so rigidly enforced in peacetime, yet during the first and second world wars there was mass conscription, as a result of which many gay military personnel served with distinction and were awarded the highest medals for gallantry?
Minister reply
That is a pretty cruel reflection on a state, and it affected not just LGBT people but women. In the first and second world wars, women kept industry going. They kept the home fires burning and kept the factories going.
Margaret Ferrier
Ind
Rutherglen and Hamilton West
Question
I thank the Defence Secretary for his statement. With 270 pages and 49 recommendations, it is a lot of summer reading. I welcome the Government’s apology to LGBT veterans today. Those veterans served their country but a number of them were stripped of their medals. Will those medals now be returned swiftly and will the ban on LGBT veterans wearing their uniform at ceremonies be lifted?
Minister reply
In answer to both: yes. Also, some veterans were told that they did not qualify for medals in the first place. They, too, will be able to have their medals from now on.
James Sunderland
Lab Co-op
Workington
Question
I thank the Defence Secretary for his statement, which, as a proud LGBTQ+ champion, I strongly support. I wonder if he might indulge me the opportunity, as a former commanding officer, of presenting him with his annual appraisal on his final tour of duty with the MOD. It says here, quite clearly, that Captain Wallace is strident, forthright, spirited and fearless in the pursuit of an outcome, which we have just seen in this statement.
Minister reply
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. If the truth be known, I do not think I ever got an A in anything. Maybe I am finishing this job without being found out.
Kevan Jones
Lab
North Durham
Question
Welcomes the report and recommends that pension benefits for LGBT+ veterans be reviewed, urging the Secretary of State to not use a £50 million cap set by the MOD as a way to keep compensation payments down. Also asks who will implement the recommendations.
Minister reply
Will write to Kevan Jones to clarify the pathway to pension benefits. Recognises the need for financial awards and will work with campaigners like Fighting With Pride on implementation. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) will predominantly handle this, but some aspects will involve other Government departments.
Alicia Kearns
Con
Rutland and Stamford
Question
Thanks the Secretary of State for his courage and openness, recognises the military community in Rutland and Melton, and asks what measures are being taken to ensure that militaries around the world uphold international humanitarian and human rights laws when trained by UK forces.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the importance of training foreign militaries on upholding human rights laws. Explains that while senior commanders played a role in the past ban, broader societal attitudes were also culpable.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Question
Welcomes the statement and pays tribute to his constituent Simon Hinchley-Robson. Requests assurances that delays and obfuscation, similar to those seen in other cases such as contaminated blood and Grenfell, will not occur here.
Minister reply
Acknowledges some delay was due to a rush for speed but says if Efford writes on behalf of his constituent, he will ensure their pension rights are restored.
Matt Warman
Con
unknown constituency
Question
Asks whether the military can use its influence to break down broader anti-LGBT prejudice in society.
Minister reply
Agrees and says that inclusivity is important for recruitment, emphasising the desire of personnel to belong within a diverse community.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
Question
Acknowledges Labour's repeal of the ban on LGBT+ service personnel in 2000 and welcomes the Etherton review. Asks if the Prime Minister’s apology is a first step, with true success measured by how compensation is handled.
Minister reply
Agrees that implementation of all recommendations will be key, not just financial awards. Emphasises avoiding making this issue partisan.
Paul Holmes
Con
Hamble Valley
Question
Welcomes the apology and asks about efforts to make armed forces more welcoming for LGBT recruitment.
Minister reply
Explains there is a strong D&I plan, guided by the Equality Act 2010. Ensures all Chief of Staff appointments embrace diversity.
Richard Foord
Lib Dem
Honiton and Sidmouth
Question
Asks if discussions have been held with homelessness charities about identifying dishonourably discharged veterans.
Minister reply
Some recommendations will involve government and charitable sectors, working across national and local governments.
Question
Supports the Defence Secretary’s campaign to put a statue of Dr Turing in Trafalgar Square. Asks for reassurance that those who left voluntarily due to an unwelcoming environment will be kept under consideration.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the difficulty but hopes affected veterans will read Lord Etherton's report and use the Government website to come forward.
Pontypridd
Question
As the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes) said, one of the most humbling and inspiring experiences a parliamentarian can have is taking part in the armed forces parliamentary scheme. Earlier this year, along with colleagues, I had the immense privilege of observing our Marines in Norway as part of their cold weather deployment training. We got to meet our proud lesbian, gay and trans service personnel—they are proud to serve our nations, and our nations should be proud of them. They spoke of how the culture has rightly changed, and I thank the Secretary of State for taking part in that culture change and making it happen. However, there is always more to do, so what can his successor do to ensure that all our armed forces, from our cadet forces onward, are inclusive and free of discrimination?
Minister reply
The first thing to do is to have exposure to everybody in the community and for people to be able to talk about their sexuality and experiences without fear or hindrance. My children’s experiences and ability to talk about a range of things are very different from those of my generation. That is because these things are much more acceptable to be talked about. Every time a soldier in training meets someone from the LGBT community who is sitting next door to them or is on a patrol with them, we see that that is the strongest way to change the culture. That is the first challenge: let us get more people from the LGBT community joining our armed forces, as that will help change the culture for good.
Question
I, too, thank my right hon. Friend for the candour he has displayed in bringing forward this important report, which has been warmly welcomed by LGBT+ veterans in Carshalton and Wallington. May I press him on the issue of marriage on the defence estate? I know that three marriages have happened since the change of regulations in 2014, yet the defence estate still does not allow civil marriages or civil partnerships to take place on the estate. That has a particular impact on the LGBT+ community. I know that he is already looking at this matter, but will he reassure us that the MOD will continue to make this policy more inclusive?
Minister reply
I totally hear what my hon. Friend is saying. I have just made certain decisions on exactly that issue that I cannot yet talk about. The relationship between the church and the military is complicated, with respect to church premises and so on. I am happy to write to him to set out the details. My intention is that these military premises or church premises should be open to administer marriages and so on to people of all orientations.
Ashley Dalton
Lab
West Lancashire
Question
I wish to acknowledge the campaigning work of LGBT+ veterans and others on this issue, and to add my voice to the thanks to Lord Etherton for this excellent report, which is welcome and much needed. The Secretary of State committed in his statement to a zero-tolerance approach to LGBT+ discrimination in the armed forces and he just talked about culture change. As LGBT people, we do not just come out once; we have to come out over and over again, sometimes several times in one day. I welcome his acknowledgement that LGBT+ people joining the military is much to be welcomed, but LGBT+ people cannot be responsible for tackling the culture change that is needed simply by turning up. Will he please outline what the Government are doing today to make sure that the culture change we so desperately need in our armed forces is taking place and that the Government take responsibility for it?
Minister reply
Some of what we are doing comes out of the excellent work done by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) on women in the armed forces, such as allowing people to feel that they can make a complaint about inappropriate behaviour and ensuring that inappropriate behaviour is dealt with outside the chain of command. The service complaints route used to go via the chain of command, which understandably caused all sorts of problems for people about who they complain to and whether they should complain to their boss about their behaviour. Part of that route is about saying, “If you feel something is inappropriate, you can make a proper complaint right through the system. If senior officers or officers are not acting on those complaints, not only will that affect their career, because the ombudsman can rule on that, but something can be done.” First, this is about upholding the standards we wish to have and making sure that unacceptable behaviour is dealt with there and then, on the spot. That is the first thing: to make it a welcoming environment.
Question
I thank my right hon. Friend for coming to the House today and for the tone in which he has delivered this statement. May I also tell him that the two friends of mine, one a former naval intelligence officer and the other a non-commissioned officer in the Army, who had to leave in tragic circumstances will both be very pleased with the apology that he and the Prime Minister have given on behalf of the state? Finally, I wonder whether the Defence Secretary would agree with something that a colonel in the Royal Marines said to me 25 years ago: “In a firefight, I would rather have a gay Marine alongside me who can shoot straight than a straight Marine who can’t.”
Minister reply
As a Scots Guard, I had better not make a comment on the Royal Marines. All I would say to my first Whip when I joined this House is that that is the point: the men and women of our armed forces all belong to a common endeavour, which is to keep this country safe. That was what was forgotten in all those years. What matters is the skill they bring to bear to deal with the enemy. As my hon. Friend says, I would much rather everyone shot straight.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s tone and the statement itself. Everyone in the House welcomes that, and the Government’s commitment is clear. Unfortunately, some veterans have taken their own lives, and others have been discriminated against and been traumatised, and their health has deteriorated. Will he pledge to help those who have offered their all for this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but who have felt on their own for far too long?
Minister reply
The feeling of rejection that those men and women must have felt will stay with many of them all their lives, which is something we have to do our very best to help solve. It must have been awful for people to think that they were helping society, and society, at that time, telling them that they did not belong. Wherever they are, we should help to look after them and urge the regiments and the veterans associations—I am president of the Scots Guards Association in Lancashire—to reach out and ask them to rejoin the family if they feel excluded.
Shadow Comment
Rachel Hopkins
Shadow Comment
The Shadow Minister welcomed the Government’s apology, acknowledging its importance for LGBT veterans. She praised Lord Etherton's review as a step towards recognising injustice but called for immediate action to implement recommendations. Rachel Hopkins sought clarity on how some recommendations might be implemented differently and inquired about compensation plans, urging inclusive mental health support and access for all affected veterans.
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