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Prison Capacity
16 October 2023
Lead MP
Alex Chalk
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Crime & Law EnforcementJustice & Courts
Other Contributors: 42
At a Glance
Alex Chalk raised concerns about prison capacity in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The minister announced increased sentences for serious offences, including knife crime, dangerous driving leading to death, and sexual offences such as rape. He emphasised that rapists will serve the full sentence handed down by courts, which is currently an average of nearly a third longer than in 2010. The prison population in England and Wales has surged due to remand populations and industrial action during the pandemic. To address this, the Government plans to build 20,000 modern rehabilitative prison places and deploy rapid deployment cells, with £400 million allocated for more than 800 new cells. The minister also discussed measures to relieve immediate pressure on prisons by moving less serious offenders out of prison up to 18 days before their automatic release date under strict licence conditions. Additionally, the Government will legislate to suspend sentences of less than 12 months and use GPS tags for monitoring, aiming to reduce reoffending. The minister also highlighted plans to remove foreign nationals from prisons early and address sentences of imprisonment for public protection.
Question
The MP's question or point. Include their concern, local impact, or criticism. 2-4 sentences.
Minister reply
The minister's response to THIS specific MP. Include commitments, rebuttals, details. 2-4 sentences.
Shabana Mahmood
Lab
Birmingham Ladywood
Question
As the Secretary of State acknowledged, to govern is to choose. His Government have chosen to fail victims and to offer too little, too late to turn our failing criminal justice system around.
Minister reply
What a very disappointing response... We will take no lessons from the Labour party in being tough on criminals.
Question
I commend the Lord Chancellor on his thoughtful, considered and serious statement that deserves a thoughtful and considered response. Does he agree that it is right to take on board some of the recommendations of the Justice Committee’s report in relation to IPP prisoners—those sentenced to imprisonment for public protection?
Minister reply
Of course we should learn the lessons from that... We will take steps, and I thank the Justice Committee for taking on this difficult issue.
Rachael Maskell
Lab Co-op
York Central
Question
I have a constituent who has been in prison for 18 years under IPP. He is due to be up for parole towards the end of the year. How long will that take, and how will it impact on people awaiting the Parole Board?
Minister reply
First, I make it very clear to the hon. Lady... We are trying to unwind a very ill-starred policy.
Question
I commend my right hon. and learned Friend for his statement. In so many ways, it echoes and builds on the work we did together in the Department. I emphasise the importance of building a technologically sound, innovative and direct alternative to short-term prison sentences.
Minister reply
l pay tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend... We are changing to a new approach, and we are putting on the afterburners to make sure those prisons get built.
Hayes and Harlington
Question
I declare an interest as an honorary life member of the Prison Officers Association. In his statement, the Secretary of State celebrated the fact that the prison population has risen to 80,000... What will be the staff-prisoner ratio in our prisons following these reforms?
Minister reply
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising the issue of prison staff... The other important point is retention, and we are starting to see a positive trend in retention.
Priti Patel
Con
Witham
Question
I completely agree with the Lord Chancellor’s last point about prison staff during the covid pandemic... What assurances will the Lord Chancellor give the public going forward that they are protected, and that offenders who are out and released back into the community do not pose a threat to the public?
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. Friend; no one did more in government to ensure that serious foreign national offenders were on planes getting out of the country... The choice for that offender is very clear.
Richard Foord
Lib Dem
Honiton and Sidmouth
Question
As Home Secretary, Lord David Blunkett introduced indeterminate imprisonment for public protection sentences. In February this year, 372 of the 2,456 women serving sentences in prison were serving indeterminate sentences. How many women are still serving IPP sentences who have already served their full tariff?
Minister reply
The Hon. Gentleman is correct and I remember when IPPs came in; they created a sense of total despair, hopelessness and injustice. We will take every step to provide additional psychological support for individuals to prepare for parole hearings and look at the issue of licences without compromising on public safety.
Question
The success of our prisons is about rehabilitation rather than having a high number of prisoners. Does he agree that we can cut crime substantially with more effective use of technology like GPS tags, creating almost a virtual prison?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend speaks persuasively and magistrates courts want to ensure the punishment fits the crime and individuals are taken away from the path of crime. Other countries have used technology effectively but we will not compromise on ensuring there is punishment.
Diana R. Johnson
Lab
Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham
Question
The Home Affairs Committee report found that rape cases are disproportionately affected by the backlog in courts, and with judges now delaying sentencing, what does the Lord Chancellor have to say to victims of rape who wait too long for justice?
Minister reply
More people are being prosecuted and convicted for rape than in 2010; sentences are a third longer and defendants spend more time in custody. We have introduced reforms such as pre-recorded evidence, court familiarisation visits, ISVAs, and the right to make victim personal statements.
Question
I strongly welcome the proposal to deport more foreign criminals, and I also support the idea of finding something better than prison for non-violent offenders. Will that include their need to have a job legally and pay compensation?
Minister reply
Since 2019, we have deported around 15,000 foreign national offenders. Judges already have the power to impose a compensation order but it depends on the funds available to the individual. An honest day’s work can generate more income for them to pay compensation.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
I thank the Minister very much for his statement and comments, mindful that this is about England and Wales. Can he tell me today whether those victims will be elevated to a more prominent position and given greater priority?
Minister reply
We have rolled out the victims code containing 12 core entitlements, quadrupled victims’ funding since 2010, doubled support for rape support centres, created new offences for ensuring justice and put victims first.
Question
Rape, and child rape in particular, is an abhorrent crime. Ensuring that those perpetrators serve their full sentence will act as a deterrent and reassure the public. What steps are being taken to ensure we have prison places for dangerous rapists?
Minister reply
We need sufficient custodial capacity for this, which is why I am announcing today that we will roll out a programme to buy locations next year with additional money ensuring planning permission is in place.
Grahame Morris
Lab
Easington
Question
To be fair to the Lord Chancellor, from the length of his answers there is no doubt he is against shorter sentences. My question is about overcrowded and understaffed prisons that make rehabilitation almost impossible.
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Gentleman for a good joke; in fairness, it was not bad.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
The Lord Chancellor is clearly well on top of this subject, so may I bowl him a couple of googlies? What safeguards will there be to prevent deported foreign criminals from coming back here if they are not imprisoned overseas?
Minister reply
We do not do plea bargaining; we have a jury system and political appointment of judges is not something we do. It is not just or sensible for people to cost the taxpayer a huge amount in British prisons if, when they are out, they are never coming back anyway.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Question
The second largest prison in Europe is HMP Berwyn in north Wales, housing 1,989 prisoners. The MP questions the effectiveness of large prisons and their impact on staffing retention.
Minister reply
The Minister notes the work being done at Berwyn to reduce reoffending and mentions Labour's previous proposal for Titan prisons with more capacity.
Greg Smith
Con
Mid Buckinghamshire
Question
Concerns about building mega-prisons in communities like Grendon Underwood, suggesting the use of existing prison estate to meet temporary capacity issues.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledges the concerns raised by the MP and promises to continue conversations with him.
Chris Bryant
Lab
Rhondda and Ogmore
Question
Criticism of the Secretary of State for pre-announcing policy changes in media before making them official, suggesting a breach of ministerial code.
Minister reply
The Minister does not accept the point raised by the MP.
Kit Malthouse
Con
North West Hampshire
Question
Questions about expanding GPS tagging for acquisitive crime and increasing judicial enthusiasm for sobriety tags.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledges the importance of judges being aware of available technology to reduce reoffending.
Question
Concerns about resources in the Ministry of Justice, mentioning joint enterprise and repeated promises of a royal commission on justice.
Minister reply
The Minister defends joint enterprise as an important legal doctrine to hold individuals accountable for offences.
Danny Kruger
Reform
East Wiltshire
Question
Supports expansion of prison capacity and tagging, suggesting rehabilitation through civil society involvement.
Minister reply
The Minister agrees on the importance of involving civil society in rehabilitation efforts.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
Question
Criticism of the Government's approach to law and order, noting issues with prison capacity and resources for dealing with crimes.
Minister reply
The Minister counters claims about conviction rates and mentions increased investment in drug treatment services.
Question
Questions the impact of today's announcement on community orders and pre-sentence reports.
Minister reply
The Minister emphasises the importance of pre-sentence reports and additional funding for probation services.
Warrington North
Question
Concerns about sentencing delays for convicted criminals on bail, including rape convictions.
Minister reply
The Minister emphasises that rapists will be punished severely and more people are being prosecuted for rape now than in 2010.
Question
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give the House a guarantee that judges or magistrates will retain the discretion to impose short-term custodial sentences in the interests of public justice and public protection?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend has been a practitioner in the courts, so he understands that there are offenders who show themselves unwilling to abide by the order of the court, and even if the court is prepared to say, “There should be a suspended sentence,” they will breach it. In those circumstances, magistrates and judges must have the power, in the final analysis, to send that person to immediate custody.
Justin Madders
Lab
Ellesmere Port and Bromborough
Question
I want to ask about licence conditions, particularly those prohibiting contact with certain people or entering specific postcodes. My concern is that the Lord Chancellor’s statement did not make it absolutely clear that breaching such conditions will lead to a return to custody.
Minister reply
In any case, before an individual falls to be released under the sentence that has been applied—in other words, when they get to the end of the custodial element of their sentence—probation officers will sort out in advance the package of licence conditions. If someone breaches those conditions, they are liable to be recalled and for the entire balance of their sentence.
Question
I believe in zero tolerance and long sentences for serious crimes but also in prevention rather than cure. With 96% of the prison population being men, will the Lord Chancellor use his position to work on reducing the number of boys destined to spend their lives in and out of prison?
Minister reply
We now have a much better understanding of some of the drivers of offending. That is why when prisoners come into jail there will be a neurodiversity assessment to explore their background, including potential brain injuries. The approach we are taking ensures that those who can be redeemed are redeemed and those beyond redemption are locked up for longer.
Andrew Slaughter
Lab
Hammersmith and Chiswick
Question
The Secretary of State’s proposals for directing short-term prisoners into community sentences might be an idea whose time had come, but it requires experienced probation staff in post, properly organised and challenging community work. His Government’s evisceration of the justice system means that none of that is available.
Minister reply
The first part—that this is an idea whose time has come—is correct. What is encouraging is that the Government are putting enormous additional resource into the probation service, recruiting more staff and strengthening the system.
Question
Magistrates think carefully before they commit anybody to custody because once somebody is sent to prison for a short sentence their life can spiral downwards quickly. Does he agree that more robust community sentences are needed, particularly in relation to drug rehabilitation?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The reason why this reform will be so important is that under a suspended sentence order, the magistrates are saying to that individual they must engage in sensible and productive ways with drug rehabilitation or else go to prison.
Mary Foy
Lab
City of Durham
Question
Four years ago, the Secretary of State’s Department announced limits on short-term sentencing which were then scrapped and now they are back. Will he apologise to prison officers—especially those in the City of Durham—and will he lower the retirement age?
Minister reply
Prison officers in the City of Durham do an exceptionally important job. We have rolled out £100 million in prison security measures to ensure that prison officers have body-worn video cameras and other security measures.
Alec Shelbrooke
Con
Wetherby and Easingwold
Question
My right hon. and learned Friend will be aware that I have been notified that HMP Wealstun in my constituency will get new cells. Will he write to me on when those will be completed by and what conversations he has had with the governor on being able to staff them to capacity?
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. Friend for the care and attention he takes in respect of this matter. I will be delighted to write to him in the terms he suggests.
Kate Osamor
Lab Co-op
Edmonton and Winchmore Hill
Question
Earlier this year, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on the criminalisation of ethnic minority and migrant women who are themselves victims of violence. Sadly, 57% of women in prison or under community supervision are victims of domestic violence. Will the Lord Chancellor commit to amending the Victims and Prisoners Bill to ensure statutory defences for those victims of domestic violence accused of offending?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for the care and attention she gives to this topic. Around 5% of the overall prison population are women, so it is overwhelmingly men who are in custody. There are already defences available such as duress, self-defence that can be invoked by individuals facing charges.
Question
A rapist should be prosecuted and sentenced and they should serve the sentence. In Chelmsford we have a small number of people charged with antisocial behaviour causing havoc on our high streets as they reoffend. Can he assure us that those persistent offenders will still be judged? There were 708 prisoners in Chelmsford prison last night, so only 15 empty spaces but there are 27 cells that could be repaired.
Minister reply
We have put a great deal of funding into the maintenance of Chelmsford prison. On recidivist offenders, it is precisely because we are concerned about people committing low-level offending that we want to ensure that magistrates retain the power to send people to prison if they show defiance or incapacity to abide by court orders.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Question
Welcomed the Justice Secretary's statement on IPP sentences but criticised underfunding of criminal justice system and prisons being full due to pandemic. Asked if adjourning sentencing is the fault of senior presiding judge or Justice Secretary.
Minister reply
Agreed with Karl Turner on IPP sentences, disputed claim about underfunding, pointed out that 2010 case numbers were around 48,000 and declined to 40,000 before pandemic. Mentioned recruiting additional judges and £141 million for legal aid to expand capacity.
Question
Welcomed statement on protecting public and asked about changing law for whole life sentences for heinous murders following Sarah Everard case. Asked Justice Secretary to meet regarding recent sentencing of Anthony Roberts, a repeat offender.
Minister reply
Agreed to meet Robin Walker to discuss concerns regarding Anthony Roberts' sentencing and the need for whole life orders for cases involving sexual violence followed by murder.
Tahir Ali
Lab
Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley
Question
Asked about prison capacity and ability to ensure dangerous drivers serve time they deserve following increased sentences for death by dangerous driving.
Minister reply
Confirmed that increasing the maximum sentence for death by dangerous driving was necessary, noted independent judges would decide on facts of case, and welcomed Sentencing Council's guidelines.
Question
Asked about reoffending rates of short custodial sentences versus community sentences.
Minister reply
Noted that 55% of those sentenced to short custodial sentences (under 12 months) reoffend, compared to 22% for suspended sentence orders with conditions. Emphasised importance of ensuring offenders become law-abiding members of society.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Question
Critiqued the Conservative Government's failure to create 20,000 prison places promised by mid-2020s. Noted net increase of only 300 places due to dilapidation losses.
Minister reply
Confirmed that the largest prison programme since Victorian era is underway with 20,000 new places. Defended Government's record and criticised Labour's failure to deliver on their promises.
Question
Asked about support for people from care system, those with neurodiverse conditions, and victims of crime and abuse in criminal justice system.
Minister reply
Agreed that it is important to advocate for fairness and decency and acknowledged Jackie Doyle-Price's advocacy for supporting such individuals.
Lee Anderson
Reform
Ashfield
Question
Welcomed statement on removing foreign criminals but asked for assurances that planes would not be blocked by lawyers or human rights campaigners.
Minister reply
Acknowledged Lee Anderson's point and assured that measures will be taken to remove foreign criminals, noting objections from Labour.
Question
Welcomed progress on IPP sentencing and asked about presumption of community service in local communities where offences occur.
Minister reply
Agreed with James Sunderland's point that offenders should make communities whole through work such as scrubbing graffiti, clearing wasteland or planting trees.
Shadow Comment
Shabana Mahmood
Shadow Comment
The shadow criticised the government's approach as inadequate, arguing that it fails victims and offers too little too late. The response pointed out that increasing prison sentences alone does not address underlying issues such as lack of funding for probation services, overcrowding in prisons, and delays in court proceedings.
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