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Post Office Board and Governance
28 February 2024
Lead MP
Kevin Hollinrake
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Business & Trade
Other Contributors: 20
At a Glance
Kevin Hollinrake raised concerns about post office board and governance in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister Kevin Hollinrake addressed the House regarding serious allegations made against the Government, his Department, and officials by Henry Staunton. He noted that an ongoing HR investigation involving both Staunton and Post Office CEO Nick Read has led to a loss of confidence in Staunton by the Secretary of State due to Staunton's attempt to bypass formal processes. Hollinrake emphasised that the Government acted swiftly to remove Staunton, citing concerns raised by board members who were prepared to resign over his conduct. He dismissed Staunton’s allegations as unfounded and stated that there is no evidence supporting these claims. The minister also highlighted ongoing efforts to deliver compensation to sub-postmasters affected by a flawed IT system and acknowledged the need for operational and cultural changes within the Post Office. Additionally, he committed to receiving findings from an investigation into individuals at the Post Office once it concludes.
Question
The hon. Member criticised the slow pace of compensation, questioning the effectiveness of redress schemes and raised doubts about the Post Office board's ability to manage the financial redress process effectively due to ongoing investigations and allegations against key figures.
Minister reply
Minister Kevin Hollinrake stated that the Secretary of State is at a World Trade Organisation conference. He acknowledged the need for improving compensation speed and fairness, citing efforts from recent meetings aimed at accelerating payments. He provided statistics showing progress in the group litigation order scheme where 106 full claims have been submitted, 104 offers made, and 80 accepted without independent panel reference. Additionally, he highlighted new interim compensation measures and announced legislation to overturn convictions en masse.
Question
Ms Marson asked the Minister to provide contemporaneous notes of the meeting with Sarah Munby to clarify Henry Staunton’s claims regarding delays in compensation.
Minister reply
Minister Kevin Hollinrake committed to publishing contemporaneous notes from the meeting that will corroborate Sarah Munby's account and refute Staunton’s accusations. He emphasised the importance of maintaining civil servants' integrity and stated that Munby has already provided clear evidence refuting Staunton.
Rushanara Ali
Lab
Bethnal Green and Stepney
Question
What we saw yesterday was unedifying and, at points, a fiasco. Sub-postmasters watching will have rightly been dismayed and will have felt that, if anything, they were moving further away from justice.
Minister reply
When the hon. Lady says that I was “selective” about what I said, is she accusing me of being economical with the truth? If so, I would take exception to that. It would be absolutely wrong for anybody in this House to disclose information about an investigation that has not concluded and where the presumption of innocence must apply for the individuals concerned.
Question
I commend the Minister, not only for the consistent and compassionate approach he has taken to this matter, but for his attendance at yesterday’s session.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his work on the Select Committee.
Liam Byrne
Lab
Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North
Question
Not a single witness yesterday said that they were satisfied with the speed of any one of the three processes. In fact, the lawyers for the claimants said that it may now take one to two years in order to complete the payment of redress.
Minister reply
I do think the chaos was caused by one individual.
Question
Does he agree that we must do all that we can to ensure that sub-postmasters who were victims of the awful Horizon scandal are exonerated, and compensated fully, fairly and with haste?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his work on this issue as one of my predecessors.
Question
In the week that we heard that more than 250 postmasters whose lives and reputations were damaged by Post Office Ltd died before they could get justice, yesterday we found another layer of Post Office Ltd’s organisational dysfunction.
Minister reply
To be clear, we terminated Mr Staunton’s role as chair of the Post Office not because of bullying accusations.
Jane Stevenson
Con
Weaver Vale
Question
In yesterday’s Select Committee session, Mr Staunton spoke about lobbying for a pay rise for Mr Read. What sort of pay rise did Mr Staunton think would be fair and equitable at the time?
Minister reply
Mr Staunton lobbied for doubling Mr Read's overall package on two occasions.
Ian Lavery
Lab
Blyth and Ashington
Question
During yesterday’s Committee meeting, the former chairman revealed that the current chief executive is under investigation. Can the Minister explain this? Also, can he clarify whether there has been an approach for a pay rise on behalf of the chief executive?
Minister reply
It would be wrong to disclose ongoing investigations. The Post Office does not directly pay salaries as most postmasters are self-employed.
Oliver Heald
Con
Kensington
Question
Does the Minister agree that more resources should be allocated to build up the team working on compensation schemes? Also, is it normal for disciplinary and grievance procedures to remain confidential?
Minister reply
Confidentiality of such procedures is important. Mr Staunton's comments were unprofessional.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Question
Given the dysfunctionality seen in senior management, would it not be wise to appoint an independent commissioner for compensation schemes?
Minister reply
While there are concerns about speed, existing schemes have independent oversight. However, the Minister is looking into calls for independent administration.
Christchurch
Question
How was Mr Staunton appointed to his position and should we not investigate this appointment process?
Minister reply
Mr Staunton’s behaviour changed in November last year, becoming erratic. Specific reasons for this are unclear but it led to his removal.
Andy McDonald
Lab
Middlesbrough and Thornaby East
Question
Are the compensation schemes too over-engineered and bureaucratic? Should we remove the Post Office from administering these schemes?
Minister reply
The Minister agrees that they are complex but is looking to accelerate payments. The fixed-sum awards do take the Post Office out of the process.
Ian Paisley Jnr
DUP
North Antrim
Question
Will delays be avoided in making compensation payments, including in Northern Ireland?
Minister reply
The Minister is committed to ensuring no delays and will work with the Northern Ireland Administration to make sure rapid compensation can be provided.
Nia Griffith
Lab
Llanelli
Question
I thank the Minister for his work on the Horizon scandal, and for answering my letter concerning a constituent. In that answer, he confirmed that former post office clerks and those working for a franchise who lost money, jobs and reputation through the Horizon scandal are not eligible for compensation under the current scheme. Will he look into ways to include them in a compensation scheme?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for her question and for representing her constituents so effectively. I am keen to have continued conversation with her. All the schemes that have been established thus far require a contractual relationship between the Post Office and the individual, and I know that was not the case for her constituent.
Question
Whether we are talking about my constituent Roger, a former postmaster whose case certainly needs review, constituents in communities such as Clarkston and Neilston, who have experienced the most recent post office closures in East Renfrewshire, or the brilliant postmasters operating locally, none of them deserves this mess. This is turning into a regrettable circus to all looking in from the outside. What assurances can the Minister give me today that that will not be allowed to divert or distract from a genuine focus on the swiftest possible resolution, and on delivering a sustainable future for the Post Office?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for making that point and for representing her constituents so well. Yes, absolutely, we understand that this is distracting, or could distract, from work to ensure not just that we make right the wrongs of the past, but that the Post Office has a strong future.
Question
I declare my interest as a member of the Horizon advisory board. Welcome back to the Minister. He should bring in his sleeping bag—he is here that often. I was at the five-hour marathon yesterday, and I was totally unconvinced by Henry Staunton’s accusations, and his allegations about delaying compensation. Like the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), I wonder why Mr Staunton was appointed in the first place—to any board, for that matter. However, to come to the point, Mr Staunton did raise the point that the chief executive is under investigation, following an 80-page report. I accept that the Minister cannot talk about that individual—that would be wrong—but he knows that the culture at the Post Office is rotten, and it is important that the cloud be lifted quickly.
Minister reply
I am very happy to come to the Dispatch Box any time I am required to, or feel that there is a need to, which, as the right hon. Gentleman says, is quite often at the moment. I was aware of the investigation relating to Mr Read and Mr Staunton.
Christine Jardine
Lib Dem
Edinburgh West
Question
I am sure that the Minister will agree that everything we are seeing and hearing about the Post Office inquiry is further undermining the confidence of those who were affected by the Horizon scandal. As the Minister says, 1,000 more people have come forward; they have no more confidence than anyone else in the governance of the Post Office. One of them, a constituent of mine, had been with the Post Office for almost 20 years, and was about to be offered redundancy. She was asked to take over a sub-post office for two months to make up the 20 years. During those two months, she became embroiled in the Horizon scandal. She was not charged, because her Post Office managers pleaded on her behalf, but she lost her redundancy, and she is now completely confused about where she stands, and has no faith in the governance to fix the problem.
Minister reply
Yes, of course I would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady and her constituent. Given what the hon. Lady has said, the place for her constituent to go is the Horizon shortfall scheme, which will be happy to look at that particular situation.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
The Minister has been incredibly honest and forthright in all his answers, and we have every faith in him, given his conduct and all the information he has brought to the Chamber, for which I thank him. As locally elected representatives, we are accountable to our electorates. How will the Minister ensure that those who are paid from Government funds are accountable in the same way? What more can be done to hold those decision-makers to account?
Minister reply
As ever, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. On the point about Government funds, I guess that he is referring to executives in the Post Office. Clearly, that is the Government’s responsibility as the single shareholder. We have a representative on the board in Lorna Gratton from UKGI, in whom I have a great deal of confidence.
Shadow Comment
Marion Fellows
Shadow Comment
The shadow Minister Marion Fellows expressed disappointment over the Secretary of State's absence and criticised the slow pace of financial redress for sub-postmasters affected by the Horizon scandal. She highlighted that prominent victims, legal representatives, and lawyers have raised concerns about compensation schemes being too slow and overly bureaucratic. Fellows questioned why the Prime Minister has not backed up the Secretary of State’s claims regarding Staunton's accusations. She also expressed doubt about the effectiveness of the Post Office board in light of allegations against CEO Nick Read and concerns over mismanagement given that more than £1.2 billion of public money is at stake.
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