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Post Office Horizon Scandal
10 January 2024
Lead MP
Kevin Hollinrake
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
Business & Trade
Other Contributors: 42
At a Glance
Kevin Hollinrake raised concerns about post office horizon scandal in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister announced further measures to speed up compensation for those affected by the Horizon scandal. He set a target of issuing initial offers for 90% of group litigation order cases within 40 days, and introduced an up-front offer of £600,000 for claims with overturned convictions. This has led to final settlements in 30 cases so far. Additionally, the Government will now make an up-front offer of £75,000 to claimants in the group litigation order scheme, which will help focus resources on larger cases. The Minister also discussed the challenge of overturning convictions and the need for careful consideration due to constitutional principles and risks of injustice. He highlighted that 95 out of over 900 convictions have been overturned so far.
David Davis
Con
Goole and Pocklington
Question
The MP welcomed the Government's response but raised concerns about individual exonerations, compensation from Fujitsu, and accelerating investigations. He highlighted the need for individual exoneration rather than a grand pardon to avoid being bracketed with those who may not be innocent.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledged the challenges of individual exonerations and stated that an exhaustive administrative process would burden the victims further. The Government is exploring mitigations and safeguards, such as requiring a statement of innocence from claimants. He also mentioned ongoing investigations through Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry to identify responsible parties, including financial measures against those found culpable.
Jonathan Reynolds
Lab Co-op
Stalybridge and Hyde
Question
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting the urgent question; I congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden on securing it. This issue has rightly left the public outraged at the scale and shocking details of this injustice. As I said on Monday, Labour believes the Horizon scandal to be one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in British history, where people lost their livelihoods, liberty and their lives; then, when trying to find justice, they were delayed at every turn. It is unconscionable that, despite the landmark legal rulings, several years on people have still not been able to access the compensation that they are entitled to. We are all united in this House in wanting the sub-postmasters to be exonerated in full—it is important to say exoneration and not a pardon, because a pardon implies guilt that is forgiven—and for them to receive compensation with urgency. We recognise that that is not straightforward and the result may be imperfect, but this is an unprecedented scandal that requires an unprecedented response. The alternative of not acting is even less desirable. Labour stands ready to work with the Government to deliver a solution that achieves that long-awaited justice and compensation at pace.
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his response to my remarks. I appreciate his offer to work with us and to stand with us to deliver compensation and the overturning of convictions. The first step will be legislation; again, we are happy to work with him on that. That may take some weeks to deliver, but the sooner, the better. The introduction and passing of that legislation will be a matter for both Houses, but our intention is to get on with that very quickly. From there, it should be a simple process: a statement needs to be signed, as the hon. Gentleman and I both referred to. We will work with the advisory board to ensure that the statement is appropriate. Following the signing of that statement, if people choose the detailed assessment route, that will be more complex because it will look at not just financial loss but personal impacts, such as on health or on other livelihoods, and consequential losses. If people choose the fixed sum award route of £600,000, that process can be very quick, which is one of the reasons why we have managed to complete 30 full and final settlements already, many using the fixed sum route. The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of people using the pilot version of Horizon, of which we are cognisant. Every postmaster around the country has been written to and should be aware that the compensation scheme is available. We believe that these schemes cover that pilot period for Horizon.
Question
I thank the Minister and the Lord Chancellor for their work. It has been longer in the making than the drama series, but they met their promise over two days by coming up with the first stage of the solution. Too many victims want nothing to do with the British justice system, the Post Office or Government. They have had enough. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is no perfect solution? The best we can aim for is one that is fast and provides life-changing money to restore these people’s lives as best we can.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for the sterling work he did as my predecessor in this job. Many people recognise the incredible work he did following the outcome of the court case with the compensation schemes that he instigated. He is right that there is no perfect solution, but we have worked across Government to try to find the best possible one. If we want a fast solution that, as he said, provides life-changing compensation to people who have been deprived of that in recent years, we believe that this is the best one.
Question
I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) for securing this very important urgent question. I am sorry that it was not a statement, because then I would have had prior sight of what the Minister was going to say. When we stood here on Tuesday, I asked how long “some time” would be, and I am glad that things are progressing quickly, although with a note of caution—I totally understand the hesitation to introduce any kind of blanket Bill or whatever. We need to move things forward and keep up the momentum from the ITV series in the press, here and everywhere. We also still need to listen to the victims. Only this morning, some of the postmasters said that we should all stop referring to compensation, but refer instead to financial redress. This is not compensation but money due to them, and we need to get it to them as quickly as possible. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) said that some people do not want to go anywhere near justice or the Post Office. We must encourage people to come forward. I am meeting constituents who were involved who have not officially approached me yet, and I am sure that many others across the House will be in exactly the same position. Scottish law is different, as the Minister is well aware. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice made a statement yesterday, and said that the Scottish Government were looking at Fujitsu contracts, which is really important. I cannot speak for the Scottish Government, but I know there will be no hesitation in moving things forward. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices, I will write to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in Scotland.
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for her question and, once again, for her work in the all-party parliamentary group for post offices. I am sorry that I was not able to share a statement with her, and I appreciate her welcoming what we have done today. I am very happy to term this “redress”; it is only about putting people back where they would have been, and trying to make good what has happened to them. I understand what she says about compensation, but this is there to compensate people financially for losses and impacts on their lives. I could not agree more that, as well as delivering compensation more quickly and fairly, the No. 1 thing we would like to happen is for more people to come forward. A simplified process that does not require postmasters themselves to file an appeal will mean that this is done more quickly. The routes to compensation have been simplified, and we very much hope that people will come forward.
Question
I welcome this legislation, and I thank the Minister for the amount of work he has done at such great speed. We are still at a midway point in the journey. There are still criminal prosecutions to come. One question that has never been answered is just how much money was taken unlawfully from thousands of innocent men and women. The Post Office took that money, and we have never known that figure. Even the most basic accountant knows that it will run into hundreds of millions of pounds. Could the Minister force the Post Office to publish the grand scale of the money it stole from people?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for contributing to these important debates in the House once again. He brings first-hand experience, as the only postmaster serving in the House. He is quite right to say that money was taken, and someone must have noticed it. One would think that the finance departments or auditors would have noticed it, as it would have appeared in some kind of suspense account and was presumably transferred out at some point. I will endeavour to find out the number, as I do not have it. We do know that prior to Horizon being installed in the post office network, there were around five prosecutions a year. That suddenly jumped to about 60 a year. We know that there were significant numbers of prosecutions, and the fact that there are around 3,500 postmasters in the various compensation schemes illustrates the scale of the problem.
Kevan Jones
Lab
Durham North
Question
I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) for securing this UQ. I know the Minister wanted to make a statement but was overruled by No. 10 so that the Prime Minister got the glory of making the announcement. A serious point is that had we not got this UQ, there would have been no debate today, which is a disgrace... Will their estates be able to access compensation?
Minister reply
Once again, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for all his work on this campaign over many years and for his work on the advisory board, which has been an essential part of seeking a resolution. Yes, if people have sadly passed away—over 60 have passed away waiting for compensation and justice—the compensation will go to their estate and therefore to their family.
Priti Patel
Con
Witham
Question
The Minister has announced that approximately one third of the 555 individuals involved in the group litigation will benefit from the up-front payment of £75,000. What other support will there be for those in that group litigation who suffered losses way in excess of that £75,000?
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. Friend for her question and for the number of times she has raised this particular issue... People going down that route can get interim payments if they are needed, so that they do not suffer financial hardship.
Christine Jardine
Lib Dem
Edinburgh West
Question
I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) for securing the urgent question... It is not just enough for us to say, “Please come forward.” We need a proactive campaign to encourage people to come forward and reassure them that they will not face the same sort of delays...
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for her remarks... I think those things alone will mean more people come forward.
Bob Neill
Con
Croydon South
Question
The Minister, and indeed all of us in this House, will recognise the desire to get the swiftest possible redress for the victims of this appalling injustice... Therefore, in justifying that, will he set out in full what consideration was given to the practicality of going down the normal route of referring those convictions to the Court of Appeal before the legislative route was decided upon?
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his willingness to work with us... My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice has engaged with the people he refers to in the judiciary, to ensure that they understood what we were doing and why we were doing it.
Liam Byrne
Lab
Birmingham Hodge Hill
Question
I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) for securing the urgent question... Three years after the landmark case, 85% of convictions have not been overturned, only 4% of the cases have resulted in a full and final settlement...
Minister reply
I am very much looking forward to appearing before the right hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee... However, we have set ourselves some criteria relating to time and service levels to enable us to respond to claims in a timely fashion.
Oliver Heald
Lab
North East Hertfordshire
Question
I thank the Minister for engaging with the concept of trying something innovative to move this process on and consult senior judiciary. I also discuss my constituent Mrs Jasvinder Barang, whose conviction was overturned over three years ago but is still waiting for full compensation. Can anything be done to enable her case to finally be dealt with?
Minister reply
It was a pleasure to meet the hon. Member yesterday and talk about Mrs Jasvinder Barang. People can choose between two routes: individual assessment or fixed-sum award, which is quicker but requires fewer resources on both sides. I will continue to work with him and the advisory board to streamline the process.
Andrew Bridgen
Con
North West Leicestershire
Question
I welcome the announcement that all convictions of sub-postmasters based on flawed Horizon evidence will be overturned, but why did it take a TV docu-drama and public outcry to force the Government to act? What does this say about our democracy and judicial system?
Minister reply
The hon. Member's challenge is somewhat unfair. I worked on the issue as a Back Bencher and made it my priority since becoming Minister. We introduced measures like fixed-sum awards before the TV series was aired, showing that we would have reached this position regardless of media scrutiny.
Robert Buckland
Con
South Swindon
Question
I thank my hon. Friend for his hard work and welcome his statement. Given the number of people who have refused to come forward, will he ensure that a system is got right in order to avoid further disincentives for innocent people to clear their names?
Minister reply
We are keen to reach out to those not in the court system due to deterrence from processes. We will continue to work with him on measures needed over the next few weeks to ensure a fair solution.
George Howarth
Lab
Knowsley
Question
To counter concerns about intentions not being backed by action, would he consider publishing target dates for legal and administrative matters to be concluded?
Minister reply
We aim to complete compensation payments by August and conclude Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry by the end of the year. We hope to publish conclusions rapidly and take an interest in who might pick up the cost of compensation.
Mark Francois
Con
Rayleigh and Wickford
Question
I commend the Minister for coming up with a practical and rapid solution despite difficult circumstances. Does he agree that Fujitsu now has a moral duty to put right its wrongs, and should we review its Government contracts?
Minister reply
We see this as a practical and rapid solution. Regarding Fujitsu, it is right that we let the inquiry identify responsibility before considering criteria for who can access Government contracts.
Ian Paisley Jnr
DUP
North Antrim
Question
I welcome swift action to resolve the problem and hope it helps those affected. Will he assure me that there will be no delay in implementing proposals in Northern Ireland?
Minister reply
Our intention is to make the scheme UK-wide without delay. Despite legal differences, we aim to engage with Northern Irish authorities as quickly as possible.
Maria Miller
Con
Basingstoke
Question
I welcome the announcement and call for an exceptional process to ensure every miscarriage of justice is put right. However, there are reports that victims were silenced by non-disclosure agreements; will my hon. Friend reconsider calls to ban such agreements in severance agreements?
Minister reply
That is a well-timed question. Non-disclosure agreements cannot prevent someone from going to the police.
Karl Turner
Lab
Kingston upon Hull East
Question
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting the urgent question. I thank the Minister for the heavy lifting he has done in the 15 months he has held his post and commend the Lord Chancellor for his work behind the scenes. Will the Minister say what legal guidance was given by the Lady Chief Justice on the exceptional process of reviewing private prosecutions? Additionally, will the Government prevent the Post Office from prosecuting any matter ever again?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and put on record my thanks to my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor and the Prime Minister who cleared their diaries to deal with these issues. Conversations took place with the Lady Chief Justice, but I am not at liberty to reveal their content as legal advice is not typically published. However, we are committed to ensuring that such an exceptional situation never happens again.
George Freeman
Con
Mid Norfolk
Question
I thank the Minister and others for addressing this matter swiftly. Will the Government look at the wider lessons from this scandal regarding accountability and scrutiny in government, and will they consider corporate fraud actions to recover funds taken from postmasters?
Minister reply
We will certainly examine the issues raised about accountability and scrutiny. Regarding corporate fraud action, while it is difficult to see how we would get money back from the Post Office given its funding by the Government, other organisations such as Fujitsu may be looked into once the inquiry concludes.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Question
The scandal has led to significant repercussions for individuals and communities. What assessment has been made of the loss of post offices following this scandal, particularly in rural areas?
Minister reply
On behalf of the Government and Post Office, I apologise for what happened to Mr Thomas and others. We are working to ensure that post offices remain financially viable and sustainable to maintain essential services for communities.
Dean Russell
Con
Hendon
Question
Victims of the Horizon scandal have faced severe mental health issues. How will compensation schemes take these into account? Furthermore, how can we prevent similar scandals involving artificial intelligence in future?
Minister reply
Compensation schemes do take mental health impacts into consideration, and we are discussing potential measures to address AI-related errors that could lead to human blame.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham
Question
There may be individuals who have signed non-disclosure agreements and are hesitant to come forward. Can the advisory board communicate with those affected by the scandal to encourage them to seek compensation?
Minister reply
The advisory board is keen to ensure that there is a single way forward for people affected by this scandal, including those in 'no public interest' cases. We will work to make sure everyone who may have suffered as a result of this scandal is properly communicated with.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Question
Hundreds of individuals have been wrongly convicted of crimes they did not commit. I commend my hon. Friend for his work. In his statement, he mentioned the malevolence that took place during these prosecutions. How is it right that individuals who gave false evidence are potentially still in post? Why are Post Office managers still in post when they knew what was happening? Should they not be brought to account and lose their livelihoods and pensions?
Minister reply
The short answer is yes; people who are guilty of offences—ones that can be prosecuted—should be brought to account. All kinds of different routes might be available to make sure they suffer as a result of their actions. We think the inquiry is the right route to expose the evidence.
Nick Smith
Lab
Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney
Question
What a sorry tale this is. I am glad that a solution to his scandal has been brought forward today, but the Post Office is owned by the UK Government, who have a shareholder—usually a senior civil servant—on the board. What did those Government shareholders tell Ministers about this issue over the years? Does the Minister think this arrangement provided sufficient scrutiny of the Post Office for Parliament and the sub-postmasters?
Minister reply
It is fair to say that the answer is no, because this scandal has occurred and there must have been a systemic failure in the relationship, either in the Post Office or in different parts of Government. We currently do not know where it failed, but we are all keen to see the outcome of the inquiry.
Question
The entire House will welcome today’s announcement. The Government have made exactly the correct decision, given the balance of mischief. Can my hon. Friend say whether the convictions to be quashed under the process he has announced today will include not only those prosecuted by the Post Office itself but those prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service? On the latter, will the Ministry of Justice review the decision-making process prior to the decision to prosecute?
Minister reply
Yes, absolutely, we believe that the overturning of convictions would happen in respect of cases prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service too, not least because, as we understand it, the files were compiled by the Post Office.
Vicky Foxcroft
Lab
Lewisham North
Question
Many Members across the House have mentioned the ITV drama and it may interest them to know that the director of “Mr Bates vs The Post Office” is in the Gallery. He has been watching Prime Minister’s questions and this urgent question closely, hoping for some positive news. It is welcome that we have had some positive news, but he has a few questions for me to ask the Minister. He really wants to know: what are the timeframes for overturning the convictions? I know that we have heard some answers on that, but a bit more detail would be helpful. When will people finally receive the full compensation they deserve? When will those responsible finally be held to account?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. The timeframe for passing legislation in this House is always somewhat uncertain, because that is not all within the Government’s gift, as legislation passes through both Houses. We are keen to legislate as quickly as possible, but it is likely to take a matter of weeks.
Question
I am grateful to the Prime Minister for his announcement and I welcome this response from the Minister. This is the right thing to do. Notwithstanding the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), it occurs to me that important information has emerged in evidence during the process of prosecutions so far. The Minister, if I understood his response correctly, referred to “malevolence” in behaviour. Will he ensure that whatever process unfolds will contain a mechanism by which information that would be useful for consideration in further action will be gathered and collated?
Minister reply
I am keen to engage with my hon. Friend to make sure that we get what he needs. Malevolence is the right word in this respect and it is important that we learn the lessons from that, in terms of both private prosecutions and the wider inquiry.
Question
No one, particularly nobody in public life, should get away with perjury, perverting the course of justice or attempting or conspiring to do that. I am therefore glad to hear the Minister say today, as he did in response to me earlier this week, that the question of further prosecutions arising out of this scandal should be carefully looked at. On financial redress, does the Minister agree that it is important that those who have been convicted should get legal advice? If, as I suspect, those prosecutions were malicious ones, the damages to which those people are entitled could be very hefty and they would be unwise to accept an offer from the Minister, generous as it might be, before they had received legal advice about what they would be entitled to if they could prove that the prosecutions were malicious.
Minister reply
I thank the hon. and learned Lady again for her remarks. Yes, I would like to see prosecutions flow from this. The inquiry will help with that of course, and other investigations by prosecution authorities will be ongoing.
Question
Noel Thomas, one of my constituents, was a former sub-postmaster who was wrongly convicted. His conviction for false accounting in 2006 was overturned by the Court of Appeal in 2021. How is my hon. Friend ensuring that sub-postmasters such as Noel Thomas, across the UK, are heard, supported, recompensed, recognised and, most importantly, exonerated? Will the Minister meet Noel Thomas, should he wish that to happen?
Minister reply
I would be delighted to meet Noel Thomas. A key part of the excellent dramatisation “Mr Bates vs The Post Office” and of “Mr Bates vs The Post Office: The Real Story”, which sits behind it and which people can also watch, features Mr Thomas. His story was incredibly moving.
Barbara Keeley
Lab
Worsley and Eccles South
Question
Following the ITV drama about sub-postmasters, constituents want their names cleared and full compensation. They also demand accountability for those responsible. The postmaster's view is that the affair has shamed the Post Office hierarchy, Government, and legal system. What will the Minister do to restore public trust?
Minister reply
The Government are keen on delivering justice and compensation as soon as possible by August but aim to finish sooner. People want both compensation and accountability for those responsible to prevent similar issues in future.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
Many families have an empty seat at the table, and compensation does not suffice as justice for them. What actions will be taken regarding software producer Fujitsu, given their ongoing use by Government agencies?
Minister reply
Yes, we should identify and hold accountable any organisation or individual responsible for the scandal, including Fujitsu, which can contribute towards the significant compensation bill funded by taxpayers.
Question
Mr Robinson ran Illingworth Road post office and was prosecuted due to flawed Horizon software but has not been compensated. Will the Minister review Mr Robinson's case for clearing his name?
Minister reply
The minister is keen to work with Holly Lynch on this case, ensuring proper compensation for anyone who suffered a conviction because of Horizon.
Daisy Cooper
LD
St Albans
Question
Paula Vennells handed back her CBE and was given a role as a director at the Cabinet Office after the High Court judgment exposing her involvement in the scandal. Why did she remain in post?
Minister reply
The minister acknowledges this question and is willing to take it away for further investigation.
Yasmin Qureshi
Lab
Bolton South and Walkden
Question
Some constituents who were part of the group litigation received very little compensation after legal costs were deducted. Will they now receive full and proper compensation?
Minister reply
The minister assures Yasmin Qureshi that her constituent can take advantage of the new scheme for full and final compensation, including interim payments.
Question
Is it time to look at remuneration options for current sub-postmasters, such as direct employment by the Post Office?
Minister reply
The minister agrees that improving sub-postmaster remuneration is important and offers one solution among others to ensure a viable network going forward.
Michael Shanks
Lab
Rutherglen
Question
How will the Minister ensure a UK-wide compensation regime, given discussions with the Scottish Administration?
Minister reply
The minister is keen on continuing conversations to make sure there is one scheme across the UK for overturning convictions and accessing compensation.
Question
While welcoming justice for postmasters, does the Minister share concern that Post Office’s reputation is irreparably tarnished?
Minister reply
The Post Office brand remains revered, but central organisation's reputation was damaged. The Government has recruited 100 area managers to improve relations with sub-postmasters and constituency MPs find their communities value post offices.
Kate Osborne
Lab
Jarrow and Gateshead East
Question
Will the Minister ensure a more independent body handles compensation decisions, as current process involves Post Office’s expensive lawyers?
Minister reply
Compensation will be made available quickly; fixed-sum award of £75,000 is offered to GLO members. The dispute resolution process responds within 40 days in 90% cases and an independent panel ensures full compensation.
Richard Foord
Lib Dem
Honiton and Sidmouth
Question
Will the Minister comment on financial redress for sub-postmasters, including those who were not prosecuted?
Minister reply
The historic shortfall scheme provides compensation to affected individuals even if deceased, ensuring their estate receives appropriate funds.
Question
Can the Minister provide reassurance for people misled by Post Office into silence regarding terms of their compensation?
Minister reply
The advisory board covers all three schemes and ensures fair outcomes. The minister will discuss concerns with Lord Arbuthnot or Mr Jones.
Wera Hobhouse
Lib Dem
Bath
Question
What rights of appeal exist other than a request to the Criminal Cases Review Commission for those not seeking a grand pardon?
Minister reply
Legislation will be introduced in coming weeks to ensure compensation without requirement to go through CCRC, covering pecuniary and non-pecuniary losses.
Shadow Comment
David Davis
Shadow Comment
The shadow Minister welcomed the Government's response but raised concerns about individual exonerations, compensation from Fujitsu, and accelerating investigations. He emphasised that victims need individual exoneration rather than a grand pardon to avoid being bracketed with those who may not be innocent. The shadow also questioned why Fujitsu, central in the scandal, is still involved with government IT systems and asked for clarification on how the costs of compensation will be managed.
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