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Post Office Horizon Scandal
22 February 2024
Lead MP
Kevin Hollinrake
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
EconomyBusiness & Trade
Other Contributors: 17
At a Glance
Kevin Hollinrake raised concerns about post office horizon scandal in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Kevin Hollinrake, addressing the House as a Back Bencher, acknowledged his commitment to compensation for victims affected by the Horizon scandal since March 2020. He reported that £160 million had been paid out in financial redress to over 2,700 victims as of this month. Overturned convictions have led to payments and settlements with various schemes receiving applications and offers of compensation. The minister emphasised the priority of ensuring swift and fair compensation, introducing optional fixed-sum awards for victims with overturned convictions or those involved in group litigation orders. He also highlighted ongoing work on legislation related to overturning convictions associated with Post Office's prosecutorial behaviour and Horizon evidence.
Kevan Jones
Lab
North Durham
Question
The MP highlighted his disappointment over the Secretary of State’s performance and asked for a detailed discussion on overturned convictions. He questioned the Post Office chief executive's letter opposing overturning convictions, seeking clarity regarding instructions from higher-ups. Additionally, he urged inclusion of those affected by Capture scandal in compensation schemes and requested swift implementation of recommendations to simplify and speed up compensations.
Minister reply
Kevin Hollinrake acknowledged the seriousness of allegations against the former chairman but stated they were false based on a letter by the permanent secretary. He assured that those affected by Capture would be included if they suffered detriment and expressed willingness for oral statements whenever possible.
Question
The MP asked for recommitment to the August target date for compensation payments, emphasising moving forward from recent allegations about delayed compensation.
Minister reply
Kevin Hollinrake thanked his predecessor and agreed that focus should shift from past allegations to swift resolution of compensation issues. He highlighted a letter by the permanent secretary confirming no instruction was given regarding delay in compensation.
Tan Dhesi
Lab
Slough
Question
The MP paid tribute to Kevan Jones for securing urgent questions and advocated for swift legislative action and comprehensive solutions. He questioned the timeline for necessary legislation.
Minister reply
Kevin Hollinrake thanked Tan Dhesi for his approach, stating that 78% of claimants have received full compensation but wished for a quicker resolution. He committed to working daily on resolving issues regarding overturning convictions and providing updates.
Therese Coffey
Con
Suffolk Coastal
Question
My hon. Friend has done a great job, but I am conscious that there are still many people waiting to settle. Much of that is due to the fact that the Post Office is not releasing information that has been requested by my constituents or, indeed, their solicitors. I hope that my hon. Friend can put across to the chief executive of the Post Office how critical it is to regain trust by releasing that information, because I fear that other sub-postmasters, or people who might otherwise have been interested in dealing with the Post Office, will start either to move away or not to take up those business opportunities, which would also damage communities—and that is already happening in my constituency.
Minister reply
I thank my right hon. Friend for her question and for making that point; she is absolutely right. Disclosure both to the inquiry and on individual cases, which is required to be able to compile claims, has been too slow. If Post Office Ltd and its management team are going to rebuild trusts with claimants and the wider public, it is absolutely incumbent on them that this is done properly and that the governance around it is done properly.
Marion Fellows
Lab
Blaenau Gwent
Question
Documents published this week by the BBC reveal that the Swift review, dated February 2016, noted that Post Office Ltd “had always known” about the balancing transaction capability that allowed transactions to be addended remotely, which is what happened. The lawyers for Post Office Ltd did nothing about that, and many people still do not trust it. A letter has been circulated, and the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) deserves all the praise we can give him today. I have a copy of his memo, which says that anyone can write to him on any issue and get advice on how to pursue claims. The Minister has given us a list of percentages and so on, but it is still not fast enough. It is still not good enough, and one of the reasons is that Post Office Ltd is still not trusted; people want nothing to do with it.
Minister reply
I entirely agree with the hon. Lady on that point and on a number of other points she raised, and I thank her again for the work she has done in this area for many years.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Question
I thank my hon. Friend for all the work he has done on this issue—not only on the Front Bench, but on the Back Benches. No amount of compensation can compensate the victims of this complete scandal. However, it does help, and speeding up the process is obviously important. Will he, during the passage of the legislation that the Government have promised to introduce, ensure that innocent victims are not only compensated, but completely exonerated? In their communities, they have suffered the stigma attached to all this, and they need to have their names cleared and their reputations restored.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for his regular contributions on this subject, which he frequently raised prior to the ITV series.
Liam Byrne
Lab
Birmingham Hodge Hill
Question
I associate myself with the words of praise for the Minister’s speed and attention on this issue. I think a legally binding instruction for the Post Office and the Department to deliver at speed is a necessity in the new Bill. The Minister has told us today that about £160 million has been paid in compensation, but there is provision for about £1.2 billion, which means that only 13% of the money has been paid out.
Minister reply
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for paying regular attention to this issue.
Andy Carter
Lab
Glenrothes
Question
I add my thanks to the Minister for his work in helping me to advise my constituents who have come forward asking many questions about the situation that they found themselves in. I am very pleased that the Government are working to compensate postmasters who were convicted in a court of law, but there are many individuals who worked for the Post Office and faced disciplinary proceedings who did not end up in court.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for so ably representing his constituents who have fallen victim to this scandal.
Alistair Carmichael
Lib Dem
Orkney and Shetland
Question
The problem for many sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses is the quantification of what they are due to be repaid under the shortfall scheme, because payments were made out of their own pocket on several occasions over a long period. It is difficult in those circumstances for the claimants to know that they have been properly compensated, because the Post Office cannot tell them how much it should be repaying. To take a step back, is it not apparent that we cannot continue to leave the Post Office to mark its own homework and that the independent elements of scrutiny need to be strengthened? Somebody independent of Government and the Post Office must be put in charge of not just sorting this out, but doing so at speed.
Minister reply
I agree with the right hon. Member’s points, and he is right that quantification is very difficult. These situations are complex. It is about not just financial loss, but the personal impact, including the impact on mental health, physical health, reputation—all those things. In those situations, we should give the claimant the benefit of the doubt where this cannot be evidenced. In many cases, the records are no longer available. We have independent people in all parts of the process. Members of the Horizon shortfall scheme include eminent KCs, such as Lord Garnier from the other place. We have Sir Ross Cranston overseeing the GLO scheme, and in the overturned convictions scheme, we have Sir Gary Hickinbottom—they are eminent retired High Court judges. I have great faith in their holding our feet to the fire and getting the right quantum of compensation to the right people at the right time.
South Shields
Question
I know that the Minister means well and that he also understands that my affected constituents have had enough of being told that the Government are working hard to get them the justice they deserve and promises of swift compensation. One of my constituent’s claims was submitted in October. She heard the Minister say in January that all claims would have offers within 40 days, but she still has not had an offer. She is right to conclude that the allegations of delaying payments to benefit the Treasury are true, is she not?
Minister reply
I am sorry that the hon. Member has taken that tone, but that is not true. As I set out, I think Henry Staunton has got this completely wrong. It is not the case, and there has never been any situation while I have been in this role—my predecessors have said the same—where we have tried to delay compensation. If the hon. Member wants to write to me, I am very happy to look at an individual case. Our commitment on the GLO scheme is that once we have received a full claim, we will respond to 90% of cases within 40 days. Some cases are more complex, but I am very happy to look at her specific case, as I have for other Members when people have contacted us directly.
Christchurch
Question
I congratulate the Minister on his tenacity in relation to this issue. When does he expect the inquiry to be completed? It seems that Fujitsu is hiding behind that inquiry and is unwilling to commit itself to compensating the taxpayer for the compensation the taxpayer will be paying.
Minister reply
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that important point. The inquiry is due to conclude by the end of this year and to report some time—early, I hope—next year. At that point, we will know more about Fujitsu’s exact role and the amount of the final compensation bill. I welcome the fact that at the Select Committee Fujitsu acknowledged its moral obligation to the victims and the taxpayer in contributing to the compensation bill, and we will hold it to its promises in that regard.
Andrew Bridgen
Con
Question
The Minister is a perceptive man: he must see the problem of his reassuring the House from the Dispatch Box on a Thursday, after the Secretary of State’s reassurances at the Dispatch Box on a Monday. The House and the country’s patience is wearing thin. Many of the sub-postmasters, who are the victims in all this, including my constituents, have had their lives blighted and scarred for well over a decade. The delays to the compensation scheme are only exacerbating the pain and the problem. The public can see a pattern, whether it is the Horizon compensation scheme, the infected blood compensation scheme or the vaccine harm compensation, and it does not reflect well on the Government.
Minister reply
I will be the first to admit that we want to deliver compensation more quickly than has happened in the past. As I said, 74% of claimants have received full and final compensation. It is absolutely right that the remaining 26%, as well as any more who come forward, receive that compensation too. It has never been a case of our trying to delay compensation. I do not believe there is a pattern here. These issues are complex but we are doing much to accelerate the process.
Chi Onwurah
Lab
Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West
Question
The Post Office Horizon scandal is now commonly called one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in British history—so many lives devastated, some lost. An inevitable consequence of that is to undermine public confidence in the Post Office, in technology, as misrepresented by the Post Office and Fujitsu, and in the Minister’s Department, particularly following the performance—that is the right word for it—of the Secretary of State on Monday. What is he doing to restore public confidence in the Post Office, in technology and in his Department? Does he recognise that swift payment of compensation is an important part of that?
Minister reply
Yes, it is the most important part of that. It is right that the Secretary of State responded to the serious and false allegations in the newspapers over the weekend. I hasten to add that those allegations were not about the Secretary of State but about a senior civil servant, who has been very clear that the allegations are false. The No. 1 way we can give confidence to those who might be submitting a claim, or have done so, is the fact that the processes do work for the vast majority of claimants. Of course, we want to improve the processes but we also want to reassure claimants that there is independence running through every single part of them.
Allan Dorans
Con
Question
How can the public have trust in the Government to stand up for whistleblowers when, by her own account, the Secretary of State attempted to cover up the departure of Henry Staunton?
Minister reply
I do not think that is an accurate portrayal of events at all. I am very happy to talk to the hon. Member about that particular issue. It was decided that Henry Staunton was no longer the right person to lead the Post Office. He then decided to make some allegations about what happened during his tenure, which have proven, in my view, to be completely false. I do not believe that Mr Staunton is a whistleblower. He spoke out, but I think the allegations he made have been clearly demonstrated to be not accurate.
Helen Morgan
Lib Dem
North Shropshire
Question
I have a constituent who was part of the group litigation order. They were not convicted, because the process was paused in 2015, but they have pretty much lost everything, having borrowed substantial amounts of money to make up the shortfall over a long period of time. They have now been told that the £75,000 up-front payment would be net of any interim payment that they have received. They are not confident to go forward with the full assessment, because of some of the highly publicised very low—derisory—compensations that have been offered. Can the Minister offer my constituent any reassurance that it is worthwhile pursuing that extensive and independently assessed claim? My assessment is that they have lost significantly more than £75,000.
Minister reply
If that is the case, they should definitely submit a claim. I am very happy to meet the hon. Lady to talk about her particular constituent. I am aware that some individuals have come forward and said that they received derisory offers. We urge them to engage with the rest of the process, which has not yet happened. There is an independent panel for the GLO scheme.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
May I also add my thanks to the Minister for his very dedicated response to all the questions that we have asked and for his energy in trying to make this scheme a success for those who have been victimised? On those who have had to take out loans to repay moneys that they never owed anyway, will calculations be carried out to allow repayment of not simply substantive amounts but moneys borrowed from family, friends or banking institutions, and the interest that they have had to pay them?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Member for all the work that he has done in this area. I think he has spoken in every single debate that I have responded to in the House on this particular matter. [Laughter.] And every single debate across this House as well. That was also the case when we were working together, fighting for justice for banking victims. I pay tribute to all the work that he has done in this House in all these different areas. On the hon. Member’s question, the key principle is that somebody is returned to the position that they would have been in financially prior to the detriment taking place. That could take into account, for example, consequential losses, pecuniary losses—financial losses—as well as non-pecuniary losses, which are other impacts such as those on reputation or on health. The short answer to the hon. Member’s question is, yes, absolutely.
Shadow Comment
Kevan Jones
Shadow Comment
Kevan Jones expressed disappointment that the Minister did not address overturned convictions during his statement. He criticised the Secretary of State for Business and Trade’s performance on Monday, indicating a need to discuss overturned convictions further in the House. Jones questioned the Post Office chief executive's letter opposing overturning convictions and asked about potential instructions from higher-ups. He also urged the inclusion of those affected by Capture scandal in both compensation schemes and among those with overturned convictions. Jones requested an assurance for swift implementation of recommendations made to simplify and speed up the compensation scheme, alongside a commitment to provide an oral statement on Monday regarding written ministerial statements at 12 o'clock.
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