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Post Office Ltd
29 January 2024
Lead MP
Kevin Hollinrake
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
EconomyEmploymentBusiness & Trade
Other Contributors: 20
At a Glance
Kevin Hollinrake raised concerns about post office ltd in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
Following a conversation with the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, Henry Staunton agreed to step down as chairman of the Post Office. An interim chair will be appointed shortly, and a recruitment process for a new chair will commence in due course. The current chairmanship was deemed ineffective given the challenging context for the Post Office and its importance. While issues beyond the Horizon scandal contributed to the decision, specifics cannot be disclosed. The Business Secretary prioritised governance and took decisive action despite the difficult circumstances. The board members other than Staunton remain in place with confidence from the Government.
Question
Clarifies if Staunton was fired or left by mutual consent, asks about the adequacy of oversight by UKGI board representatives and whether his removal will improve management culture and financial redress for postmasters.
Minister reply
The phrase used in the statement is 'mutual consent', but it implies that the Government exercised their right to remove Staunton. Lorna Gratton, who replaced Tom Cooper as UKGI representative, is trusted by the Government. Measures were introduced prior to any TV dramas for compensation, including fixed-sum awards. The Government aims to identify new revenue sources and improve remuneration for sub-postmasters.
Priti Patel
Con
Witham
Question
Asks when the Secretary of State will release all documents related to the Horizon scandal so that victims can see where responsibility lies.
Minister reply
Documents are already public and subject to scrutiny through the 2021 inquiry. The inquiry sessions have been revealing about the conduct at the Post Office, and a report is expected next year with clearer understanding of responsibilities.
Rushanara Ali
Lab
Bethnal Green and Stepney
Question
The Post Office Horizon scandal has caused significant harm to sub-postmasters. Criticises the decision to remove Henry Staunton over a weekend, questioning whether it was substantively based on evidence or due to personal reasons. Asks for details of the timeline for replacing Mr Staunton and assurance that this change will lead to culture changes.
Minister reply
The removal was necessary to avoid public disclosure by other means. It was not about past problems but future governance issues, which were confidential human resources issues. Timeline for replacement is being looked at and will be reported as soon as possible.
Question
Concerns the inability of Mr Read to answer questions regarding the Horizon scandal. Asks about confidence in Mr Read’s leadership and whether board minutes showing when the matter was first brought up have been made public.
Minister reply
Mr Read committed to providing answers, but the primary means is through the inquiry which will conclude by year-end. The Government awaits responses from the Committee.
Question
Questions why bonuses were paid to Post Office executives for cooperating with the Horizon inquiry and if there has been any discussion about Fujitsu’s contribution towards compensation and whether the Government will reveal how much in excess was claimed back from staff.
Minister reply
Bonuses were returned voluntarily by recipients. The Government is negotiating with Fujitsu but believes it is best to wait for all evidence before concluding negotiations. The question of excess moneys will be addressed.
Question
Concerns the difficulty constituents face in proving they bought the Horizon system when documentation does not exist.
Minister reply
Agrees that postmasters should have the benefit of the doubt if evidence is lacking.
Liam Byrne
Lab
Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North
Question
Asks why there is no Bill to expedite redress for those wrongfully convicted, requesting a hard deadline enshrined in law.
Minister reply
The Post Office is not rudderless; daily work continues. Interim and permanent replacements are being sought quickly. The Department is keen on engaging with the right hon Gentleman on overturning convictions but aims to maintain legislative progress.
James Wild
Con
North West Norfolk
Question
Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to look at the Post Office’s reported practice, under the former chairman, of making payments of just £5,000 under the Horizon shortfall scheme for distress and inconvenience to people it falsely accused of theft, when a similar claim made at an employment tribunal, in the most exceptional cases, is 10 times that amount?
Minister reply
To be clear, those schemes are run independently of the Post Office. There are independent processes all the way through, and an independent panel assesses the loss. Any tariffs that might go with payments are not a ceiling but tend to be a floor. People should be fully compensated for both their financial and non-pecuniary loss; this is a principle we have adhered to throughout the process. We are looking at recommendations of the advisory board to ensure fair payments, and in the group litigation order scheme there will effectively be a minimum £75,000 fixed-sum award.
Daisy Cooper
Lib Dem
St Albans
Question
The Post Office bullied, threatened and lied to sub-postmasters and throughout the compensation process it has tried to minimise payments. Is the Minister confident that the compensation programme is truly independent and fair?
Minister reply
I do not accept the premise of under-compensation. The independent panel for the Horizon shortfall scheme included Lord Garnier and several KCs, ensuring fairness in the process. Full and fair compensation is ensured by the advisory board which includes Lord Arbuthnot, Mr Jones, Chris Hodges and Professor Moorhead.
Bob Blackman
Con
Harrow East
Question
Will the Minister ensure that whoever is appointed chairman commits themselves thoroughly to cultural change in Post Office management's relationship with sub-postmasters?
Minister reply
The relationship between Post Office Ltd and sub-postmasters needs further improvement. We have appointed 100 area managers to help build this relationship, and we need the right leader of the board to ensure further cultural changes.
Question
Poor leadership led to massive under-compensation of sub-postmasters like Mr Pennington. Will the Minister take action now to ensure that Mr Pennington is finally compensated for his years of distress?
Minister reply
I am very happy to work with the hon. Lady on her constituent's case. People should be fully compensated for financial loss and other impacts, including reputational loss. We are looking at recommendations for an appeal mechanism.
Question
By taking this action, the Government have accepted that the arm’s length body model does not work. Will he look again at the structure of Post Office Ltd and confirm that the former chairman did not receive any severance payment?
Minister reply
Yes, I can confirm there was no severance payment. We do not think the arm's length model fails; we terminated the chair’s position which is part of current governance process. We need to appoint the right person to help cultural changes.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Question
The effects of the Horizon scandal are still hurting our communities, leading to closures. Will the Minister guarantee post services in Nefyn town?
Minister reply
I am very happy to take up this point and discuss it with her offline. The Post Office is maintaining its requirements under set criteria, but I will meet her to discuss her case.
Andrew Slaughter
Lab
Hammersmith and Chiswick
Question
Post offices in my constituency have been temporarily closed for up to 10 years with queues stretching around the block at times. Will the Minister investigate why Post Office Ltd lacks commercial sense?
Minister reply
I am happy to look into any cases referred by the hon. Gentleman. The Post Office maintains its requirements under clear set criteria and we are looking at how to ensure the network of individual post offices is sustained over the long term with new revenue streams, including through access to cash legislation.
Question
We need a proper plan for ensuring no further deterioration of the Post Office network. What is the Minister’s plan to address this issue?
Minister reply
I agree with the hon. Lady that we need sustainable post offices, and it's about revenue. Changes in consumer habits and business levels caused difficulties for postmasters. The Government have legislated for access for cash which delivers more revenue into those branches. We are keen to see enhanced banking relationships, parcel hubs, foreign exchange opportunities.
Andrew Gwynne
Ind
Gorton and Denton
Question
The reputational damage to the brand of the Post Office as a direct consequence of the Horizon scandal has been massive—as the Minister knows, my constituent Della Robinson was one of the 555 litigants who had their convictions quashed a couple of years ago. Looking to the future, what is the Minister’s vision for reinvigorating the Post Office as a great British brand?
Minister reply
I thank the hon. Member and Della Robinson for her work in trailblazing compensation efforts. The Post Office brand itself is not damaged but rather it is the central management that has issues. We support local post offices, which are highly esteemed by their communities.
Question
It has been very concerning over the last few days to read that a senior UK Government civil servant colluded with the Post Office to shut down an independent investigation by forensic accountants back in 2014, and that he did so with the full knowledge of the coalition Government. Now that the Metropolitan police are finally investigating possible criminality on the part of the Post Office and high-up employees, does the Minister agree that they should also be looking at the possibility of misfeasance in public office?
Minister reply
That is a concern to the Government as well. The inquiry will ascertain who did what or did not do something when they could have intervened. We welcome investigations and prosecutions by the Met police, although we do not seek to influence them.
Question
The family members of a terminally ill constituent came to my surgery in Corkerhill on Friday; that person was a shopkeeper in the highlands who, like so many, were caught up with unexplained shortfalls in Horizon totals and often paid up to avoid trouble. Can the Minister tell us whether work will be done to ensure that we know exactly how much in excess the Post Office claimed through all Horizon errors? Can he also tell me in general terms how he will ensure that those who are terminally ill get the justice and compensation they richly deserve?
Minister reply
We aim to compensate individuals as quickly as possible. The historical shortfall scheme has seen 100% of applicants receive offers, with 84% accepting them. We are keen on identifying excess funds and ensuring people are compensated accordingly.
Tim Farron
Lib Dem
Westmorland and Lonsdale
Question
When considering the governance of Post Office Ltd, will the Minister bear in mind the demoralising impact of the Horizon scandal on current and potential sub-postmasters, as well as on the people who were victims of the scandal itself? In our communities, we are fighting to return post offices to Shap and to Hawkshead—as he knows, because he kindly met me to discuss them recently—and to maintain a post office in Staveley, but we are being hampered by apparent inertia and administrative hurdles. We need encouragement, not red tape. Is there a plan to proactively support current and potential postmasters, so that we can maintain and expand our vital post office network in Cumbria’s communities and across the country?
Minister reply
Yes, it was a pleasure meeting with the hon. Member. I am happy to meet again to expedite matters if delays are encountered. We will work through necessary checks but aim to resolve new postmaster applications as quickly as possible.
Shadow Comment
Marion Fellows
Shadow Comment
The shadow asks for clarification on whether Staunton was fired or left by mutual consent, questioning if he is being made a scapegoat to divert attention from the Government. She also highlights that the governance model has failed and successive Governments' arm's length approach allowed scandals to fester. Fellows inquires about the adequacy of oversight by UKGI board representatives and questions whether Staunton's removal will speed up financial redress for postmasters.
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