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Government Policy on Health
09 September 2024
Lead MP
Wes Streeting
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
NHS
Other Contributors: 24
At a Glance
Wes Streeting raised concerns about government policy on health in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, delivered a statement on the importance of expert advice in addressing the current crisis in the National Health Service (NHS). He acknowledged the significant challenges facing the NHS, including waiting lists exceeding 7.6 million patients, issues with GP appointments, ongoing disputes with junior doctors, and shortages in dental care. The minister emphasised the Government's commitment to seeking guidance from experienced individuals like Alan Milburn, a former Member of this House and Health Secretary, due to his record of reforming patient choice, transparency, and improving performance within the NHS. He highlighted that Mr Milburn's presence is based on formal invitations by Ministers and not self-initiated access.
Victoria Atkins
Con
Louth and Horncastle
Question
Ms Atkins questioned the extent to which Mr Milburn's presence in departmental meetings could lead to conflicts of interest. She sought clarity on whether Mr Milburn declared his business interests and what sensitive information he was privy to during these sessions.
Minister reply
The Minister responded that Alan Milburn’s attendance at departmental meetings is strictly under formal invitations by Ministers and does not involve any self-initiated access. He emphasised the importance of having such expertise around to guide reforms in the NHS, given its current crisis.
Victoria Atkins
Con
Louth and Horncastle
Question
Ms Atkins continued her criticism by asking for a detailed list of other advisers, their business interests, and any members of the public attending meetings with sensitive information. She further questioned the legitimacy of unrecorded access to such information based on exemptions in ministerial or civil service codes.
Minister reply
The Minister acknowledged Ms Atkins's concerns but reaffirmed that Mr Milburn’s involvement is legitimate and essential for informed policy-making, without providing specific details about other advisers or their business interests.
Victoria Atkins
Con
Louth and Horncastle
Question
I fear that the right hon. Gentleman is betraying his inexperience... [Interruption.] Given the risk of conflicts of interest, has Mr Milburn declared his business interests to the Department? Can the right hon. Gentleman reassure the House on how such conflicts are being managed?
Minister reply
The right hon. Lady wants to compare experience. It took me three weeks to agree a deal with junior doctors—she had not even met them since March—and in the two and a half years that I was the shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, she was the fifth and among the worst... This Government are having to rebuild not only the public services that the Conservatives broke and the public finances they raided, but the trust in politics that they destroyed.
Clive Efford
Lab
Eltham and Chislehurst
Question
The sheer brass neck of the Conservatives to turn up on the very day that Transparency International UK published its report showing that £15 billion of contracts were red-flagged during the covid epidemic... Should the Conservatives not have taken that into consideration before coming here with this urgent question?
Minister reply
I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. Frankly, every single contribution from the Opposition Dispatch Box should begin with a grovelling apology for the way they conducted themselves in government, but they will not apologise: they have learnt nothing and they show no humility. To my hon. Friend’s point, when it comes to covid corruption and crony contracts, the message from the Chancellor is clear. We want our money back and the covid commissioner is coming to get it.
Sarah Olney
Lib Dem
Richmond Park
Question
The Liberal Democrats find it deeply ironic that the shadow Health Secretary has raised this question on the involvement of people with no formal appointment in the development of Government policy... Will the ethics adviser be empowered to initiate their own investigations and publish their own reports?
Minister reply
I am grateful to the hon. Member for her serious contribution. She is right to say that transparency matters. That is why meetings in my Department, and their attendees, will be published in the right and proper way on a quarterly basis... This is a Prime Minister who does take ethics seriously and will not behave in the way that his Conservative predecessors did.
Peter Prinsley
Lab
Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket
Question
I have been a surgeon for 28 years. In the first 14 years, we had a Labour Government and we saw the waiting lists more or less disappear... I welcome the advice of Mr Alan Milburn, one of the most successful Secretaries of State and one of the architects of the fall in the waiting lists, and I support the Secretary of State in this.
Minister reply
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I am delighted to see him here, bringing his experience to the House, sharing it with the nation, standing up for his constituents and being part of the team that will do what the last Labour Government did, which was to ensure that our NHS is back on its feet and fit for the future.
Kit Malthouse
Con
North West Hampshire
Question
Notwithstanding the Secretary of State’s bluster, he must appreciate that, given Mr Milburn’s involvement in the private healthcare sector, his direct access to the Secretary of State may have conferred a competitive advantage. What does the Secretary of State say to those companies who compete with Mr Milburn’s companies about the access that he has had to the Secretary of State? How can we in the House be reassured about the kind of information that Mr Milburn has been able to access and what, if any, advantage that might have conferred upon him?
Minister reply
With the way that Conservative Members are carrying on, and with the smears and innuendo they are applying, I am surprised that Alan Milburn is not paying them a marketing commission. The right hon. Gentleman makes out that Alan Milburn has come into the Department and is making all the decisions. If he were up to what they are suggesting, I could not think of better word-of-mouth publicity. There is a clear distinction between inviting people with a wide range of experience and perspectives into the Department to have policy debates and to generate ideas, and having meetings that are about transacting Government business. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that nothing commercially sensitive has been shared with Alan Milburn.
Jonathan Brash
Lab
Hartlepool
Question
In October 2023, when I phoned my NHS dentist to get an appointment for my children, the next available appointment was in June 2024. [Interruption.] When June 2024 rolled around, they cancelled the appointment. The next available appointment is April 2025. Given my right hon. Friend’s disgraceful inheritance, does he think the Conservative party should spend a little more time reflecting on its record and a little less time asking pointless questions?
Minister reply
I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. Let the record reflect that, when he was raising the crisis that is leaving people in Hartlepool without access to NHS dentistry, Conservative Members were shouting, “What about Alan Milburn?” That says everything about their priorities, everything about their lack of remorse and contrition, and everything about why they should stay in opposition for a very long time while we sort out the state of NHS dentistry in Hartlepool and across the country.
Bernard Jenkin
Con
Harwich and North Essex
Question
How legitimate is it for the House of Commons to ask about external people coming into Departments and potential conflicts of interest? In cases like Alan Milburn’s, or that of a former Conservative Secretary of State, how does the Department identify and manage conflicts of interest?
Minister reply
It is entirely legitimate to ask questions, and it is also entirely legitimate for Government Departments to invite people with a wide range of experience and insight to advise on policy debates and discussions. That happens all the time. Where do we draw the line? Do we have to send compliance forms to Cancer Research UK before it comes in to talk about how we tackle cancer? Do we have to send declaration of interest forms to patients who want to discuss awful cases they have experienced? Frankly, I find this pantomime astonishing. I am surprised that the shadow Secretary of State thinks this is such a priority that she should raise it on the Floor of the House rather than NHS waiting lists, ambulance response times, GP access or the state of social care.
Anna Dixon
Lab
Shipley
Question
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on taking advice from his predecessors. As someone who worked as a senior civil servant in the Department under Alan Milburn, I would like to echo my right hon. Friend’s comments about what a fantastic Secretary of State he was and speak to his record in that position. I also worked as a civil servant under the coalition Government. Will the Secretary of State also be seeking advice from Andy Burnham who, as Secretary of State when Labour last left office, left record low waiting times and high public satisfaction?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. How fortunate we are to be able to turn to every living former Labour Health Secretary, from Alan Milburn to Andy Burnham, and in every single one of those cases be able to draw on people whose record of delivery led to the shortest waiting times and the highest patient satisfaction in history. I can confirm to my hon. Friend that, both in opposition and in government, I have been talking to the Mayor of Greater Manchester. He is doing some brilliant work on prevention. I am really looking forward to working with all our metro mayors to tackle health inequalities across the country and to improve the integration of health and care services across the land.
Paul Holmes
Con
Hamble Valley
Question
I know it will be a novelty for the Secretary of State actually to answer a question during this urgent question, but maybe he will do the House a favour by answering this very simple question with a yes or no. He said that no pass was given to Alan Milburn, so will he guarantee that no confidential documents that could have been used for commercial purposes were accessed or left his Department? Will he take responsibility if any documents or data discussed at ministerial meetings with Alan Milburn leave the Department—yes or no?
Minister reply
Yes.
Shaun Davies
Lab
Telford
Question
Fixing and getting our NHS back on its feet should be a national mission, and everybody should be able to play their part in that. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether any former Conservative Ministers have put themselves forward to try to fix the mess that the party now in opposition created over the last 14 years?
Minister reply
This is the extraordinary thing: notwithstanding the public job application of a former Conservative Secretary of State, which did not meet the bar, I have been approached by former Ministers in the Department of Health and Social Care who served in the Conservative Government who, in a spirit of public service, have wanted either to do work for the Labour Government on issues that they care about, or have sought to share their experiences—the highs or, indeed, the many lows—of being in government. That is a totally legitimate thing to do. I suspect that, if I rang round all my Labour predecessors, I would find that the Conservative Government tried desperately hard to get them to work for them, because, as I say, the challenge for Conservative Health Secretaries was that they did not have any successful Conservative predecessors to turn to.
Paul Kohler
Lib Dem
Wimbledon
Question
I share the Secretary of State’s frustration and understanding of the brass neck of the Tories on this point and I do not doubt the expertise of Alan Milburn, but legitimate questions have been asked about conflicts of interest. What safeguards are being imposed or considered to address the appearance of conflicts of interest?
Minister reply
It is absolutely right that people appointed to roles in public life declare their conflicts of interest so that they can be assessed when taking decisions or exercising powers to ensure that they are doing so in a way that manages those conflicts of interest and no conflict arises. Alan Milburn does not, at this stage, have a role in the Department of Health and Social Care. Many people have come into the Department for meetings in the past eight weeks. We do not ask them all to declare their interests. I know there is more red tape now in health and social care than when we left office, but this Government want to reduce that not increase it.
Christopher Vince
Lab Co-op
Harlow
Question
The Conservative party appointed a party donor, Wol Kolade, who wants to change how the NHS is funded, to the board of NHS England. In January, the right hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) held a meeting with his private equity firm, Livingbridge, less than one month after he gave her party £50,000, so is it not the shadow Health Secretary who ought to be answering questions about cronyism?
Minister reply
It is not for me, thankfully, to answer for the shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care; it is just my responsibility to clean up her mess.
Mims Davies
Con
East Grinstead and Uckfield
Question
Will the Secretary of State please illuminate the House about any conflict of interest concerning the gentleman in question? Did he head into the ministerial floor or access the Department? Many of us want our constituents to access health services and GP appointments. Did the right honourable gentleman, who is the Secretary of State’s friend from the old days and with whom he has worked with previously, have a day pass or a departmental pass? Beyond the bluster, can the Secretary of State assure hon. Members that there is no conflict of interest?
Minister reply
My right honourable friend, Alan Milburn, does not have a role in the Department. He does not have a pass to the Department. I am asked whether he has accessed the ministerial floor. I do not know where the Conservatives held their meetings, but I tend to hold them in my office on the ministerial floor.
Emma Foody
Lab Co-op
Cramlington and Killingworth
Question
Across Cramlington and Killingworth, I have heard countless stories—heartbreaking stories—of residents’ experiences of the NHS. They talk about the staggering length of waiting lists, access to GPs and access to dentists. Does the Secretary of State agree that, rather than focusing on who he might have once had a conversation with, the Conservatives would do better supporting the Labour Government in cleaning up the mess they left behind, which my residents live with every single day?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is because of the way that she champions her constituency and her community that she was sent to this place to stand up for their interests. It will not be lost on her constituents or anyone else in the country that, with our national health service in the state that it is in and with the appalling headlines that we have been reading in recent days, the Opposition have absolutely nothing to say about the responsibility that they bear for the crisis or what they would do to fix it. They have the wrong priorities, but, fortunately, the country has the right Government.
Nick Timothy
Con
West Suffolk
Question
How many meetings has Alan Milburn had in the Department? Will the Secretary of State place a list of all those meetings in the House of Commons Library?
Minister reply
My right honourable friend, Alan Milburn, does not have a role in the Department. Details of meetings held in the Department will be published as usual.
Sam Rushworth
Lab
Bishop Auckland
Question
What will this Government do differently after the economic disaster caused by dodgy covid contracts and VIP fast lanes?
Minister reply
The Government is focused on pursuing cronyism and corruption in covid contracts, aiming to get our money back with the help of a covid corruption commissioner.
Graham Stuart
Con
Beverley and Holderness
Question
Can he confirm that Alan Milburn did not have access to official sensitive papers during his meetings?
Minister reply
Alan Milburn attended meetings as a visitor and had no access to Government decision papers or recommendations for Ministers. He sat on the other side of the table with discussion papers.
Andrew Lewin
Lab
Welwyn Hatfield
Question
Will the Secretary of State consider visiting Hertfordshire, where there is a hospital at home scheme making a difference to patients?
Minister reply
I would be delighted to visit Hertfordshire or have one of my ministerial colleagues visit. The Government values expertise and experience in getting it right on NHS and social care.
Gregory Stafford
Con
Farnham and Bordon
Question
Will the Secretary of State publish all the papers that Alan Milburn was able to read during his meetings?
Minister reply
Papers were shared with Alan Milburn on Privy Council terms, which will be accessible in due time for scrutiny by the Opposition.
Matt Turmaine
Lab
Watford
Question
Is he aware of the virtual hospital system developed at West Hertfordshire Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust Watford site during covid?
Minister reply
The Government is keen to hear about such initiatives and values the expertise available in the NHS.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
How can the Secretary of State assure us that this Government will do things differently, ensuring openness, transparency and policy proposed by those with know-how?
Minister reply
Ministerial meetings attended by third parties are declared quarterly. Ministers take decisions based on the best advice available while maintaining transparency.
Shadow Comment
Victoria Atkins
Shadow Comment
The Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Victoria Atkins, criticised the minister's reliance on Alan Milburn, questioning his inexperience and raising concerns about potential conflicts of interest. She pointed out that Mr Milburn receives consultancy fees amounting to more than £8 million since 2016 and advises various health-related organisations, which she argued could pose significant risks regarding patient confidentiality and market-sensitive information. Ms Atkins demanded transparency on the number of meetings held with Mr Milburn, their nature, and whether they were conducted in the presence of ministers. She also requested details on sensitive information shared with Mr Milburn, including potential conflicts of interest and compliance with ministerial codes.
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