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Sentencing Review and Prison Capacity
22 October 2024
Lead MP
Shabana Mahmood
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
ImmigrationJustice & CourtsTaxation
Other Contributors: 32
At a Glance
Shabana Mahmood raised concerns about sentencing review and prison capacity in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
The Minister announced a comprehensive plan to address the prison crisis, acknowledging the failures of the previous government. She highlighted emergency releases and the reduction of custodial sentences for some prisoners from 50% to 40%, while emphasising the need for smarter sentencing and greater use of non-custodial punishments. The Government pledged to build more prisons but admitted that building alone was not a long-term solution due to an annual increase in prison population. A review led by David Gauke will examine sentencing principles, aiming to balance punishment with rehabilitation and public protection. The Minister also outlined measures such as extended home detention curfews, risk-assessed recall reviews, and accelerated removal of foreign national offenders.
Edward Argar
Con
Melton and Syston
Question
The shadow Lord Chancellor questioned the rate of prisoner recalls under the SDS40 scheme, asking for clarification on data suggesting a very high recall rate. He also inquired about the use of hotels to accommodate released prisoners and requested further details on deportation plans for foreign national offenders.
Minister reply
The minister acknowledged concerns about recalls but disputed the 50% figure suggested by some media reports, based on her internal data. She confirmed that hotels are being used temporarily to house released prisoners under SDS40, though she did not specify exact numbers or costs. The Minister committed to improving deportation processes for foreign national offenders but provided no immediate details of specific targets.
Edward Argar
Con
Melton and Syston
Question
The MP sought clarity on the eligibility criteria for home detention curfews, questioning whether a fixed minimum percentage would always be served by those sentenced to prison. He also requested details of proposed changes to rehabilitation activity requirements and asked about measures in place to contact victims when perpetrators are released.
Minister reply
The minister confirmed that a fixed minimum percentage will be served for prisoners eligible under home detention curfews but acknowledged the complexity of interactions between different release schemes. She committed to examining exclusion lists for both SDS40 and HDC and providing further details on proposed changes in due course.
Edward Argar
Con
Melton and Syston
Question
The Shadow Lord Chancellor emphasised the importance of fair financial settlement in the upcoming budget, stressing that cuts would undermine public confidence in law and order.
Minister reply
The minister acknowledged the need for a fair financial settlement but could not prejudge next week’s Budget details.
Edward Argar
Con
Melton and Syston
Question
The MP questioned the Lord Chancellor's approach regarding SDS40, expressing concern over its impact on public safety. He sought clarity on data publication dates for SDS40 statistics, hotel accommodations used, deportation plans for FNOs, exclusions list revisions, and overall victim support services. The MP also emphasised the importance of avoiding budget cuts to criminal justice.
Minister reply
The Lord Chancellor responded by confirming that victims' voices will be central in the sentencing review panel. She highlighted ongoing efforts to recruit more probation officers and stabilise frontline staff workloads. Regarding prison capacity, she committed to delivering 14,000 additional places but stressed the need for a multi-faceted approach beyond just building prisons.
Andrew Slaughter
Lab
Hammersmith and Chiswick
Question
The MP welcomed the Lord Chancellor's initiatives to manage prison pressure while questioning the long-term desirability of expanding prison capacity. He inquired about operational changes for probation officers and asked whether there are plans to close outdated prisons.
Minister reply
In response, the Lord Chancellor acknowledged high workloads for probation officers and committed to a strategic review of probation governance with additional recruitment efforts. She reaffirmed plans to build 14,000 prison places but stressed the need for systemic changes beyond just construction.
Josh Babarinde
Lib Dem
Eastbourne
Question
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of her statement. Having grown up in a home of domestic violence, I share concerns about loopholes in the early release scheme's criteria that could lead to the release of abusers convicted of violent offences but not domestic violence-specific offences. I also welcome the Government’s determination to fix the criminal justice system through an evidence-led review and mention my past work with ex-offenders. However, I am disappointed by the lack of reference to victims and survivors in the terms of reference and question why indeterminate imprisonment for public protection sentences are excluded from this review.
Minister reply
I empathise with the concerns raised and explain that due to legal constraints, only offences can be excluded rather than offender types. Every lever has been pulled to minimise impact on victims and ensure proper notification and monitoring of offenders in the community. For the sentencing review, victim voices will be represented as it is important. IPP sentences are excluded because they involve a challenging cohort of prisoners where ensuring public safety remains paramount.
Andrew Lewin
Lab
Welwyn Hatfield
Question
Under the Conservative Government, more than one in two people who served short-term custodial sentences went on to reoffend. Reoffending costs our country £20 billion a year. What will my right hon. Friend do to adopt a new approach and work with charities to cut reoffending for good?
Minister reply
To reduce reoffending, we must tackle overcrowding in prisons which impacts the ability of offenders to participate in education and training programmes. Charities play a significant role in helping bring down reoffending rates through innovative programmes.
Ashley Fox
Con
Bridgwater
Question
In the first wave of early releases, 37 prisoners were wrongly released. What steps are being taken to ensure such mistakes are not repeated? Does she agree that ensuring released prisoners can participate in the labour market is key to reducing reoffending?
Minister reply
Immediate steps were taken once the issue was brought to our attention; all 37 wrongly-released individuals have been returned to custody. To reduce reoffending, access to literacy training and skills are important for offenders to turn their backs on a life of crime.
Southgate and Wood Green
Question
I welcome the Secretary of State’s review of sentencing. However, people who are neurodivergent are over-represented in the prison population. What steps will she take to ensure that prisoners with ADHD or autism do not reoffend?
Minister reply
Support must be tailored for prisoners with needs such as neurodivergence and undiagnosed autism within prisons. Addressing overcrowding is essential before tackling underlying issues to enable positive choices from offenders.
Kieran Mullan
Con
Bexhill and Battle
Question
The Secretary of State has identified a good set of principles for her review. On the Texan approach, would it be fairer if we used existing access to early release as a reward? Additionally, how does she propose to close the gap in evidence relating to victims' feelings about sentencing?
Minister reply
The Texas model is interesting and seeks to incentivise positive behaviour that reduces reoffending. The review will consider this model among others from around the world. Evidence must be balanced with maintaining public confidence in any measures taken, while ensuring victim voices are heard.
Jake Richards
Lab
Rother Valley
Question
In June 2019, David Gauke made a speech as Lord Chancellor on smarter sentencing. It was a helpful, coherent, cogent, evidence-based speech about sentencing reform. Four Conservative Prime Ministers later, no progress has been made, so I am pleased that the Labour Government will grasp the nettle. We were just discussing the Texan example of problem solving and sentencing, but can the Lord Chancellor reassure me that the review will also consider family, drug and alcohol courts, and the progress and positive results that we have seen in the family courts?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend makes the case well for why David Gauke is the right person to lead this review. As I said, he brings deep expertise to this debate. I am sure that the sentencing review panel will be interested, as many are, in some of the pilots that are being run on problem-solving courts, and also in the family courts.
Tessa Munt
Lib Dem
Wells and Mendip Hills
Question
What measures is the Lord Chancellor taking to ensure that the review considers the impact of sentencing polices on different socioeconomic groups, and addresses concerns about disproportionate sentences for marginalised communities and minority groups?
Minister reply
The hon. Member raises an important point. That issue is not within the review’s terms of reference. It will not consider disparities in sentencing because it is looking at the overall sentencing framework, and how we ensure that we never run out of prison places again.
Hayes and Harlington
Question
I declare an interest: I am the honorary life president of the Prison Officers Association. I thank the Secretary of State on behalf of the POA for her open-door policy on engagement with the union. I congratulate her on bringing forward the sentencing review. The POA has long argued that there are too many people in prison, in particular with mental health problems. They include veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder who should not be there, but should be treated elsewhere. Will she ensure that the unions are fully involved in deciding on the composition of the panel and the engagement process for the review?
Minister reply
Working closely with our trade unions is important to us. We have already engaged with the Prison Officers Association. Let me place on record my thanks to all who work in our prisons and our probation system.
James Wild
Con
North West Norfolk
Question
Parliament legislated for a maximum sentence of life imprisonment for causing death by dangerous driving, but judges are yet to impose such a sentence, despite such cases as the one in my constituency in which three people were killed by a driver in a case with five aggravating factors. Will the Lord Chancellor ensure that when the review considers longer custodial sentences, it looks at how victims can get justice, and how the maximum sentences legislated for by this place are applied?
Minister reply
The hon. Member will know that sentencing decisions in individual cases are a matter for the independent judiciary, who have to consider all the facts in front of them and sentence accordingly, based on the law, the sentencing guidelines and the framework.
Calvin Bailey
Lab
Leyton and Wanstead
Question
I thank my right hon. Friend for her handling of the issue and the approach she is taking in response to the challenges she faces. This morning, I met local police leadership to discuss the challenges around drug-based criminality in Leyton and Wanstead. The situation they face could not be clearer. After 14 years of Tory failure, overstretched police services, over-capacity prisons and woefully underfunded probation services and councils have led to a vicious cycle of reoffending. Does she agree that the whole system needs reform and investment to restore public trust in our justice system, and to keep my constituents safe?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend will know that in our safer streets mission, improving confidence in the criminal justice system is one of the key outcomes we are focused on. He is right to make the point that the whole criminal justice system requires stabilisation.
Julian Lewis
Con
New Forest East
Question
The Lord Chancellor speaks with great clarity and determination on this issue, and I am sure that she will remember last week promising me a ministerial meeting involving my constituent, Andrew Duncan, and a specialist team. They are working on a new concept of community detention that I believe is tailor-made for the vision that the Lord Chancellor has outlined to us today. Can she confirm that the meeting will go ahead, notwithstanding the extra opportunity to give evidence to the Gauke review in due course?
Minister reply
I knew immediately that the right hon. Gentleman was going to ask about the meeting he referenced last week, when I made my other statement. I assure him that I will follow that up.
Warrington North
Question
I thank the Lord Chancellor for her statement, and for the leadership she has shown in trying to turn around a Department that, by any metric, was failing. I thank her for the transparent and considered approach that she has taken in reaching some of the difficult decisions she has had to make since taking office. While I accept the inevitability of the early release scheme, what conversations has she had with ministerial colleagues on improving victim support for those who have seen perpetrators return to the community earlier than they were perhaps mentally prepared for, so as to reduce harm as far as possible?
Minister reply
I can assure my hon. Friend that my ministerial team and I have been working closely with our colleagues, primarily in the Home Office, but also across Government.
Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Question
Neil Foden is in prison for the sexual abuse of four vulnerable schoolchildren. He was the headteacher and strategic headteacher at two secondary schools in Gwynedd. Foden was convicted of 19 charges and sentenced to 17 years in July this year for his abhorrent crimes. The judge said he showed no remorse. Can the Lord Chancellor advise me how to seek assurance for his victims that Foden will not be released until he has served at least two thirds of his sentence?
Minister reply
I can confirm that all sex offences of all types are excluded from the SDS40 measures.
Salford
Question
I very much welcome the Lord Chancellor’s sentencing review, but on immediate systemic issues, privately run Forest Bank prison in Salford is at 138% capacity, with continued reports over the years of high levels of violence and insufficient rehabilitative training for prisoners. The contract runs out in January. Can the Secretary of State confirm who will be running the prison after that date? Will she be bringing it back under state control? What measures is she taking to urgently ensure safety in the prison and adequate rehabilitative training?
Minister reply
I will not pre-empt any future decisions on any particular prison, but I am not ideological about whether a prison is run by the state or privately. The most important thing is that we get on top of the capacity crisis across the whole prison estate.
Desmond Swayne
Con
New Forest West
Question
I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on recognising that for some prisoners, the shortcomings of short sentences are properly remedied by providing for longer ones. On the review and David Gauke, it is difficult not to like him and even admire him, but I am not alone in regarding him as a notorious wet, am I?
Minister reply
I will leave those characterisations to the internal workings of the Conservative party. I consider David Gauke to be a person with deep expertise in this area.
Question
The Lord Chancellor referred to successful work in Texas. If we adopt such a model over here, how will victims be involved in shaping that tough rehabilitation approach?
Minister reply
We will make sure that the review panel, when it is fully put together, includes somebody with experience of working with victims of crime to make sure that that perspective is fully reflected in the investigations that the review undertakes and, ultimately, in its findings and recommendations.
Paul Kohler
Lib Dem
Wimbledon
Question
May I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on the terms of reference of this review, and the appointment of the excellent David Gauke? I remain concerned, however, about the Government’s evident enthusiasm for increasing capacity. May I ask the Lord Chancellor directly whether she agrees with her colleague in the other place that we imprison too many people in this country? Is the Lord Chancellor’s ultimate aim to reduce the prison population?
Minister reply
We need to make sure that we have the prison places we need to lock up those who have to be locked up. That is fundamentally non-negotiable. We have to see an increase in prison capacity. I mentioned earlier that the previous Government failed to deliver 14,000 places. Without them, we will run out of prison places again. We have to build the supply, and we have to do better on reoffending. All these things are equally important, and they all have to be done at the same time.
Cardiff West
Question
I welcome the announcement of the bipartisan sentencing review panel and thank my right hon. Friend for her continuing work to fix the mess of the last 14 years in this Department. The evidence shows that 55% of adults on short sentences go on to reoffend, while community orders have a 34% reoffending rate. Can she assure me that the panel will consider that as part of its remit?
Minister reply
That is exactly the sort of area that the panel will review. Although the reoffending rates for community orders are lower, they are still far too high. I am sure that the sentencing panel will want to consider how to bring all the numbers down so that we can ensure we are rehabilitating more people and ultimately cutting crime.
Beccy Cooper
Lab
Worthing West
Question
In 2021, the Justice Committee highlighted the fact that too many offenders were imprisoned because community orders with mental health requirements were unavailable in many areas across the country. Does the Lord Chancellor agree that we must now work across the health and justice systems to ensure that adequate provision is available in this essential area?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I can assure her that I will work closely with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to make sure that there is join-up across Government and that we do everything we can to reduce reoffending, rehabilitate more people and ultimately cut crime.
Jonathan Brash
Lab
Hartlepool
Question
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, particularly her preference for the deportation of foreign criminals and her comments that for hyper-prolific offenders, a particular problem in my constituency, longer sentences may be best. Whatever the outcome of the review, can she commit that dangerous criminals who pose a threat to the public, in Hartlepool or anywhere else, will always be locked up under this Government?
Minister reply
Yes, I absolutely can. The whole point of the review is to ensure that the country is never again in a position in which we might run out of prison places, and to ensure that those who must be locked up to keep the public safe will always be locked up.
Warinder Juss
Lab
Wolverhampton West
Question
Keeping a prisoner in prison costs the taxpayer over £50,000 a year, whereas punishing the prisoner out of prison costs less than £5,000 a year. What is more, the prisoner is then far less likely to reoffend. Does the Secretary of State agree that taxpayers’ money would be better spent on having a much cheaper and better alternative to prison?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend makes a really important point about the relative costs of imprisonment and of punishment out of prison. Delivering the 14,000 prison places that the previous Government failed to deliver is a big cost, but it will be met by this Government. We must also ensure that we expand punishment out of prison. All options must be pursued if we are to get to grips with this crisis.
John Slinger
Lab
Rugby
Question
I am not given to hyperbole; I will simply say that my right hon. Friend has inherited a shocking and dangerous situation and is dealing with it in a calm and collected manner. I applaud and support the move to a more sensible and sustainable policy on sentencing, but will she assure my constituents in Rugby that we will always lock up violent and dangerous offenders where necessary to keep the public safe?
Minister reply
Let me assure my hon. Friend that the answer to his question is yes and yes. Part of the reason for doing the review is to ensure that this country is never again on the brink of running out of prison places, and that dangerous offenders who need to be locked up to keep the public safe will always be locked up.
Lauren Edwards
Lab
Rochester and Strood
Question
I welcome the sentencing review and thank the Secretary of State for her explanation of why IPP sentences are not included in the review. What steps will she take to accelerate routes out of custody for prisoners serving IPP sentences, including a re-sentencing review that can be done without prejudice to public protection, to end an injustice once and for all and to increase capacity on our prison estate?
Minister reply
I hear the point my hon. Friend makes, and she makes it very well. We are not considering a re-sentencing exercise for IPP prisoners, because that would automatically release a number of people who we do not believe it would be safe to release. I am not willing to compromise public protection. I know that there is a huge injustice at the heart of these issues and that IPP sentences have rightly been abolished, but we have a problem with the cohort, in particular those under an IPP sentence who have never been released at all. I am determined to make more progress, wherever it is possible to do so safely, on releasing more IPP prisoners, but never in a way that compromises public protection.
Amanda Martin
Lab
Portsmouth North
Question
I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to cross-party working, transparency and rebuilding public trust. Does she agree that this is a significant departure from the previous Government, who released over 10,000 prisoners not in the open but in secret?
Minister reply
I agree. My hon. Friend is right to remind the House of the last Conservative Government’s end of custody supervised licence scheme, for which we, in the end, had to release the numbers. Over 10,000 offenders were released under that scheme, without transparency and without the same exemptions that we have applied to the SDS40 changes.
Shaun Davies
Lab
Telford
Question
What a mess we have inherited! I thank the Lord Chancellor for the steps that she has taken today to sort it out. We know that offenders who are subject to home detention orders are 50% less likely to reoffend, but can we put them to work as well during unpaid work sessions? Can we ensure that offenders who commit further offences while on licence are dealt with more robustly in the courts as they are recalled to prison?
Minister reply
My hon. Friend raises really important points about how we break the cycle of recalls to prison and ensure that licence conditions are abided by, and about the scope for putting more offenders to work. I am sure that these will be matters of great interest to the sentencing review panel. I look forward to seeing its findings in due course.
Ben Goldsborough
Lab
South Norfolk
Question
The past 14 years have shown that Governments ignore the prison estate at their peril. My right hon. Friend rightly says that we must redesign punishment outside the secure estate. Will she elaborate on how offenders will have their liberty curtailed and how the public will be made aware of that liberty being taken away?
Minister reply
The modern world, with different technology, presents the best possible opportunity for us to expand the use of punishment out of prison, but in a way that gives the public confidence that offenders are being supervised, that the eyes of the state remain on them and that their behaviour and their liberty are effectively curtailed. I expect that new technology, as well as current available technology, will be of great interest to the review panel. I look forward to its findings when it reports in the spring.
Shadow Comment
Edward Argar
Shadow Comment
The Shadow Lord Chancellor welcomed the sentencing review but urged that it prioritises public safety and victims’ rights. He questioned the effectiveness of releasing prisoners earlier, particularly those convicted of violent or sexual offences. Edward highlighted past achievements under the previous government, such as a decrease in reoffending rates from around 31% to over 25%. He raised concerns about the cost and logistics of hotel accommodations for released prisoners and asked for more details on deportation plans for foreign national offenders. The Conservative MP also requested clearer guidelines on home detention curfews and tagging processes, emphasising the need for a fair financial settlement in the upcoming budget.
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