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Post Office Horizon
30 July 2024
Lead MP
Justin Madders
Debate Type
Ministerial Statement
Tags
TaxationNorthern IrelandScotland
Other Contributors: 14
At a Glance
Justin Madders raised concerns about post office horizon in the House of Commons. A government minister responded. Other MPs also contributed.
How the Debate Unfolded
MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said:
Government Statement
As hon. Members are aware, recent legislation has quashed convictions across the UK, allowing affected individuals to apply for financial redress under the Horizon convictions redress scheme managed by the Department. The Government have been working closely with the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to identify those eligible. Letters informing recipients that their conviction has been overturned and providing details on how to access financial redress are being issued. Victims can opt for a fixed settlement of £600,000 or a full claim assessment if they believe their losses exceed this amount. Preliminary payments of £200,000 will be made upon confirmation of eligibility, with historical data from the Post Office and HMRC available to support claims. The Government assure victims that every effort will be made to ensure fair offers are made even when information is not retrievable.
Kevin Hollinrake
Con
Thirsk and Malton
Question
Expresses disappointment about delays in written updates, despite previous promises. Questions when the remaining 690 postmasters will receive letters with reference numbers needed for registration and when the first £600,000 payments will be made. Also asks about assistance for Court of Appeal convictions not quashed by legislation.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the challenges in verifying data but reassures that additional resources are being deployed to expedite processes. The website is now operational and 89 people have already registered, with verification checks ongoing. Payments will be processed within 10 working days after verification. Discussions on Court of Appeal convictions are underway.
Liam Byrne
Lab
Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North
Question
Refers to a previous Select Committee report noting that 80% of the redress budget had not been paid out, urging for measures to speed up payment processes.
Minister reply
Acknowledges the need for faster payments. Data on group litigation order offers and Horizon shortfall scheme claims are updated monthly. Initial payments have been made to 103 out of 110 individuals under the overturned convictions scheme.
Sarah Olney
Lib Dem
Richmond Park
Question
Welcomes efforts for justice but highlights past issues with delay and inefficiency in compensation schemes. Suggests appointing an independent body to manage the current redress process.
Minister reply
Agrees on concerns about delays and is looking into ways to accelerate expert evidence collection and claims processing. An independent mediation step after initial decisions and a final independent appeal decision are being considered.
Ian Lavery
Lab
Blyth and Ashington
Question
Asks for advice regarding individuals who have paid significant amounts back to the Post Office due to direct employment by sub-postmasters rather than the Post Office itself.
Minister reply
Offers to review specific circumstances of victims in Blyth and Ashington if further information is provided, aiming to ensure no one is out of pocket as a result of this scandal.
Gavin Williamson
Con
Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge
Question
Communities across the country were impacted by the Horizon scandal, and one of those was Wheaton Aston. Not only did Wheaton Aston lose a much-loved postmaster, but it lost its post office. Will the Minister look at the specific case of Wheaton Aston not just in terms of that postmaster getting compensation, but to take up the issue with the Post Office to ensure that a post office is returned to the village?
Minister reply
I will certainly relay that back to the Department, and we will look in some detail at that. It is important that communities have a post office that they can access. They are a vital part of our infrastructure in this country and a vital lifeline for many individuals, and we want to make sure that every community is served as much as possible.
Pamela Nash
Lab
Motherwell, Wishaw and Carluke
Question
I take a moment to pay tribute to my predecessor, Marion Fellows, for the work she did on this issue throughout her time in this House. I was delighted to hear from the Minister that there have been conversations with the Scottish Government regarding this issue and looking for justice and redress for sub-postmasters. How confident is he that no further obstacles will be put in the way of justice and redress in Scotland by the Scottish Government following those conversations?
Minister reply
I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to her predecessor, who was tenacious in her pursuit of this matter. We have had a number of conversations with the Scottish Government, and we do not want to see any difference between how this scheme is administered in any part of the country. We are confident that will be the case.
Gosport
Question
This is a national scandal, and it is almost impossible to quantify the loss of trust in the Government and the Post Office that has resulted. Can the Minister set out a little more on what the Government intend to do to ensure that the information and support to make the applications to the redress scheme will be there for every single postmaster who has been affected and every single one who had a conviction quashed?
Minister reply
The hon. Member asks an important question. Disclosure packs are being prepared for every claimant, which will contain what we believe is all the information they need to assess whether they wish to accept the fixed sum, or to proceed to a more detailed assessment of the claim. The pack will include details of their contracts and remuneration with the Post Office, details of whether they were eligible for the Royal Mail share plan and any other information that the Department can obtain that is requested. We want to work at pace with individuals to ensure they have all the information they need to make an informed decision.
Kate Osborne
Lab
Jarrow and Gateshead East
Question
The Minister will be aware that I have long campaigned on this issue. He might not yet be aware of a letter I sent to his Department highlighting issues with the current compensation schemes, as well as calling attention to issues with the original 555 sub-postmasters, one of whom is my constituent Chris Head. Chris was one of the thousands of people impacted by the Horizon scandal, and he has still only been offered 17% of his verified claim. Will the Minister agree to meet me and Chris to discuss these issues?
Minister reply
I am indeed aware of my hon. Friend’s letter and all the work she has done over a number of years in support of her constituents and the wider sub-postmaster community. I am sure that the relevant Minister will agree to meet her and her constituent, and I will make sure that request is passed on to him.
Llinos Medi
PC
Ynys Môn
Question
As the Member for Ynys Môn, I represent Lorraine Williams and the formidable Noel Thomas, who spent his 60th birthday in jail for a crime that never took place. It is clear that sub-postmasters continue to be treated appallingly by the UK Government in the wake of the Horizon scandal and made to feel guilty for the cost of compensation to the public purse. Can the Minister give confidence to Noel that the new Government will compensate for the real human cost of the suffering caused by this awful scandal?
Minister reply
We do not want sub-postmasters to feel guilty for claiming what is rightfully theirs. What this place has decided is their entitlement. We have taken measures to ensure that they will not have to foot any legal bills for taking advice in respect of their applications and we want to ensure that every potential head of loss is covered and adequately compensated for. We want to make the process as easy and swift as possible for those affected.
Rupert Lowe
Ind
Great Yarmouth
Question
I am pleased to hear from the Minister that the Government will expedite payments to those people who have been extremely badly treated by a state-owned entity in this national scandal. Will he do anything about those people who arguably knew that the Fujitsu software called Horizon was deficient and yet still brought legal cases against sub-postmasters, many of whom went to prison? There must be some redress and, going right the way back, those who were responsible for bringing cases against innocent people in the knowledge that the software was deficient must suffer some form of penalty.
Minister reply
The hon. Member makes an important point, which has been raised on a number of previous occasions. We believe that the correct approach is for the inquiry to assess those individuals’ particular culpability, and then we will take forward its recommendations. It is important that we see individuals take some responsibility and accountability for their actions.
Robbie Moore
Con
Keighley and Ilkley
Question
The Horizon IT scandal is without doubt one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in our history. While we cannot change what has happened, we must establish what went wrong. Will the Minister assure the House that he will carefully consider the findings of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry? Does he agree with the shadow Secretary of State that there should be prosecutions of those deemed responsible?
Minister reply
We are taking a close interest, as the hon. Member would expect, in the evidence coming forward in the inquiry. Much of it is shocking. The amount of obfuscation and, shall we say, misinformation put out by a number of individuals is concerning. We think it is right to wait and see what the chair of the inquiry recommends in terms of future action, but we are committed to looking at that closely and ensuring that individuals take responsibility for their actions.
Christine Jardine
Lib Dem
Edinburgh West
Question
One of my constituents was about to end more than 20 years of service with the Post Office with a comfortable package, but she was persuaded to take on a post office for two months. She did so and then got caught up in the Horizon scandal. She had months of trauma, trying to prove her innocence and arguing with the Post Office, and then she was sacked. She lost the package and incurred a lot of expense. I spoke to the previous Minister about that.
My constituent has applied for compensation, but she has been told that she is not entitled because she did not have a contract, which she says she did. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can protect such people and ensure that they get the compensation they are entitled to, and that we do not have this continual excuse-finding for not paying people who deserve compensation?
Minister reply
I am grateful to the hon. Member for that question. Where there are evidential difficulties, we are looking at other ways of ensuring that those who should be eligible are entitled to claim. I am happy to have further conversations with her in that respect.
Jim Shannon
DUP
Strangford
Question
I thank the Minister very much for his answers to the questions posed. I make representations for the 26 postmasters from Northern Ireland who have been fighting for years to clear their names. While it is fantastic that movement has been made to undo the wrongs of this scandal—I thank the Minister and the Government very much for that—what steps have been taken to ensure that compensation is issued to all postmasters across the UK in a timely manner to avoid more delays and miscarriages of justice, including for those 26 from Northern Ireland?
Minister reply
We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that all the information required is verified and corroborated so that those individuals in Northern Ireland who have been caught up in this scandal receive that letter as soon as possible.
Shadow Comment
Kevin Hollinrake
Shadow Comment
The shadow Secretary of State expresses disappointment over the delay in providing a significant update on redress schemes for victims, despite previous commitments. Only 10 out of 700 postmasters have received letters with reference numbers needed to register for redress. Questions are raised about when the remaining 690 will receive their letters and when £600,000 payments will be made. Concerns also arise over assistance for Court of Appeal convictions not quashed by legislation and whether claimants in the Horizon shortfall scheme have been informed of minimum payment top-ups.
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