Commons Sense

House of Commons · Bill Debate

Armed Forces Bill - Clause 7 and Lords amendment 1B

13 December 2021 · 14 other contributors

Opened by Leo Docherty Con Burnley

Summarised by AI from the official record, so it can contain mistakes.

At a glance

Leo Docherty raised concerns about armed forces bill - clause 7 and lords amendment 1b in the House of Commons. Other MPs contributed to the debate.

Key points

  • Government disagrees with Lords amendment 1B requiring a report on implications of not applying new covenant duty to central government
  • Service justice system needs flexibility and expeditionary capabilities for robust criminal justice in military operations
  • Current improvements include better data reporting on serious offences for transparency

How the debate unfolded

MPs spoke in turn to share their views and ask questions. Here's what each person said.

Opened the debate

Leo Docherty Con Burnley

The Government disagrees with the Lords amendment 1B, which would require a report within six months on the implications of not applying the new covenant duty to central government. The speaker emphasises that the service justice system needs flexibility and expeditionary capabilities, asserting it's crucial for maintaining robust criminal justice in military operations. He also highlights that current improvements include better data reporting on serious offences to ensure transparency.

Other contributors (14)
  • Simon Hoare Con North Dorset

    Expresses concern over the lack of concrete actions if review outcomes do not align with expectations, emphasising the need for more substantial commitments beyond vague promises to keep things under review.

  • Bob Neill Con Commissioner for Public Appointments

    Questions the contradiction between expeditionary military design and the proposed presumption of civilian court jurisdiction for offences committed in the UK, suggesting that the current system already provides flexibility.

  • Richard Graham Con Gloucester

    Raises a separate concern about resolving issues with free visa applications for non-UK servicemen and women, proposing that the current requirement of 12 years' service is too long.

  • Julian Lewis Con New Forest East

    Asks whether serious cases of murder abroad are affected by the ongoing debate on jurisdiction, seeking clarity on how such incidents should be handled under current and proposed legal frameworks.

  • Stephen Kinnock Lab Aberafan Maesteg

    Kinnock argues that serious crimes committed by service personnel should be tried in civilian courts due to lower conviction rates under military tribunals. He stresses the importance of fairness, transparency and justice for female recruits and veterans, highlighting how low conviction rates can deter women from joining the armed forces.

  • Asked Kinnock to clarify what specific actions government could take under his proposed amendment that they cannot do otherwise, questioning the practical implications of broadening accountability for central Government.

  • Tobias Ellwood Con Bournemouth East

    Supports upgrading the Armed Forces Act 2006. Argues for the need of scrutiny by military and legal experts. Emphasises that civilian courts are better equipped to deal with crimes like domestic violence, child abuse, rape and sexual assault due to an absence of military experience in handling such cases. Mentions low conviction rates as evidence of disconnect.

  • Carol Monaghan SNP Glasgow North West

    Expresses disappointment with the current Bill's provisions and states that they will not deliver a significant impact for members of the armed forces. Highlights missed opportunities like improvements in service accommodation, visa fees, and service justice for rape or sexual assault. Acknowledges past failings but stresses need to look at experiences of women serving in the military.

  • Bob Neill Con Bromley and Chislehurst

    Welcomes concessions made by the Government but expresses concern about the structure of the defence serious crimes unit. Highlights potential sensitivity issues in handling rape cases and suggests involving independent legal expertise. Also calls for bringing forward unfinished business from the Henriques review.

  • Carol Monaghan SNP Glasgow North West

    Questions whether a small prosecuting body will have the expertise to handle cases properly and raises concerns over gender parity in military courts.

  • Sarah Atherton Lab Wrexham

    Supports the Bill and specifically supports Lords amendment 1B, arguing that it is necessary to address systemic issues around sexual assault in the military. Emphasises the need for civilian courts for rape cases due to entrenched laddish culture.

  • John Redwood Con Wokingham

    Supports the Government’s progress in supporting armed forces personnel, but highlights issues with housing for service members. Calls for more support to enable home ownership and property near home base.

  • Rob Roberts Lab Dulwich and West Norwood

    Questions why it would be acceptable for police officers accused of serious crimes to not face civilian courts while military personnel would.

  • Leo Docherty Con West Somerset

    Welcomes contributions from other MPs and acknowledges support for increasing women's representation on courts martial boards, calls for independent expertise in the defence serious crime unit, highlights gratitude for inquiries that will accelerate institutional change to ensure women can thrive in military careers, confirms housing is a pillar of the covenant provision with significant financial investment into accommodation for service families and personnel through the Forces Help to Buy scheme.

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